A Pastor’s Journey from Brokenness to Influence

[00:00:30] Speaker A: Bishop Vaughn McLaughlin. Welcome to the Code Red Studio. [00:00:33] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Zack. It's such a pleasure to be here. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Well, you and I met in a really odd place. We were at Hobby Lobby headquarters. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Yes, we were. And that was a wonderful trip, and I had a great time. Got to know you real well. Heard about you. Then I got to know about you. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Same here. [00:00:49] Speaker B: It was mutual. Everything was wonderful. Hey. What I heard and what I met matched well. [00:00:55] Speaker A: I enjoyed the conversation. And it surprised me because I think a lot of men that you meet, and I'm sure that you've seen this, they've got a couple of talents. They can do a couple of things well. Most of us can do one thing well. But it seemed like anything we talked about, you could kind of hang in there. And, you know, sports, you know, theology. And your cell phone. You probably have more people in your cell phone. [00:01:22] Speaker B: I've heard that. I've heard that when people are having a conversation, sometimes they'll talk about maybe some celebrity or something. I go like, you want me to call him? Yeah. [00:01:30] Speaker A: You were like, hang on a minute. And I'm like, seriously? Seriously. And so as we got to know each other and talk through it, started watching your work down in Jacksonville and the progress of that, and it's a totally. I've never seen a ministry like it before. What you've built, the history of it. I want to get into all that, but I want to start with your personal history. Just tell us how you came up. Were you brought up in the church? [00:01:53] Speaker B: No. I was 26 years old before I ever held a Bible in my hand, really. Before I ever went through the doorways of church. I visited a church when I was 17 years old and slept on the front row of the church. My mother had invited me. I had come home from college, and that was it. That's the only encounter I'd ever had with anything called Christianity. I'm the first Christian in my family. Not the first preacher, not the first disciple of the first Christian in my family. My mother raised five boys by herself. My father left when we were very early. He was a Navy guy. We got to Jacksonville because he got stationed here. I was born in Pensacola Naval Base, have a brother born in Newport Naval base in Norfolk and Newport, Rhode island, all over, just the different naval bases one year apart. And then we wound up in Jacksonville when I was 4. And I was raised here in the public school system and stuff here. But 26 years of age, I had never heard a sermon. And I literally was kept. Now I look Back at it, you know, God's hand was on my life, keeping me from a whole lot of stuff. But I wound up becoming a Christian at home by myself, sitting on a couch with a glass of Jack Daniels in one hand and weed in the other and Prince singing. The night of a party, like in 1999, I had been convicted. I had been witness to my wife's best friend became a Christian. My best friend got saved. And so they were trying to witness to us. We rejected both of them. And then there was a seven day party at my house. We had kids that came down from Tennessee, where we went to college together and partied with us in my home for seven days. And on the seventh day, which was a Sunday, they said, okay, we're going to a church somewhere. They called me Popcorn. Popcorn, where do you suggest we go, huh? And I panicked. And so they left and went to the church. And I was left at the house by myself. And it was there, conviction set in. I realized that I noticed some of these people during the week weren't doing everything that I was doing. And I noticed some of them would, you know, had a good nature about them. And it was sort of like my best friend that got saved and my wife's best friend that got saved. There's something about these people, right? And it just soaked in. When they got ready to leave, they said, would you pray with us? And I panicked. I literally had a panic attack. Told them I'd be right back. Ran into my home, got in the deepest closet I could find in the guest room, pulled the covers over my head and stayed there for over an hour until they left. And when I heard the van pull off, I came out of the closet, relaxed. And then it was the next day. I couldn't leave my house. I couldn't go anywhere. I couldn't move. I just wept for a whole day and looked up to heaven and I said, God, if you're real, Alvin said that if I confess with my mouth, the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart, Cheryl said that you love me in spite of me. And I just started weeping. And, man, next thing I knew, I was on my knees and I was crying and I just called on the Lord. And I found out later that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Amen. And that was my salvific experience for two weeks. I could not leave the house. I had a great job working on the railroad, making six figures at 22 years old. And I couldn't go to work. I Couldn't leave. Like the world was new. Everything was new. And I finally got my hands on the Bible. And, Zach, I read it twice before I ever went to a church service. And that's been, I think, key to some of the things that I do and why I do some of the things like I do and why I'm such an oddity to so many people, why I'm so different. I had nothing to unlearn. I had no denominational, doctrinal stuff that I had to sift through. I didn't have to defrag. I didn't have to deconstruct. I read the Bible. And when I read the Bible, I finally went to a worship service like a month and a half later. And I was expecting to see in that service what I had read in the Bible. And it kind of didn't match. And so I began my journey. And then from there I just started going. [00:06:26] Speaker A: So if somebody had approached you a week before, because we're in the south and everybody thinks of themselves as a Christian, you know, unless they're intentionally something different, would you have thought of yourself as a Christian before? [00:06:38] Speaker B: That never did. Well, my concept with this, if you don't kill anybody or rob a bank, you go to heaven. I mean, yeah, that was, of course, my thought. But then again, not having any Christian beliefs or conviction, I also was chameleon. So if somebody was over here humming or somebody was over here saying this or saying that, I just become whatever I needed to get along with the crowd. But I did not have spiritual conviction because I had no concept. The first time I heard Lord, I remember telling the guy, lord Calvin, I drank plenty of that. You know, I didn't know what a Lord was. I didn't know what the Holy Spirit was. And so really, I was just that clean of a slate. And with that said, I think it has helped me in who I am today because I'm not prejudiced by any camp. You know, I spent a lot of time in theology. You know, I grabbed a hold of Grudem and grabbed ahold of some of the systematic theology stuff that's out there. You know, Geisler and all these different folk started. I just got hooked on who is God? What has he done? What does he require of us? You know, and this whole meta narrative of creation, fall and redemption. Even then back in 1983, you know, I was like, hey. And I was going to the Christian bookstores just wanting to know about God. I never forget going to a Christian bookstore. There's one here in Town called Gospel World. And it was a charismatic bookstore, right? It was charismatic based. And I went in there and I said, hey, what do you have on doctrine? And the guy looks at me and he says, we don't carry doctrinal books. Doctrine divides, you know, And I'm sitting there like, speak down those things to become sound doctrine. You know, the doctrine that's key, that's knowing who God is, understanding the faith. And from there, my pursuit was straight theological, and I went straight doctrinal. But I had a compassion of an evangelist because I witnessed to it that anybody got near me, they heard about Jesus. [00:08:54] Speaker A: So when I've heard you preach in different settings, in different times, I went back and I took your search your name in YouTube. Then I marked it by popularity, the number of views. And so it goes back and it finds some things that were probably 20 years old. And then I went and I looked at some of the more modern, you know, within the last few weeks sermons that you've preached. And your style has changed some in that time, you know, and as I'm sure mine has as well. But you can channel the greatest of the black preachers, and you can do that style of preaching as if it's very native to you. And for me, it's like, how did you do that? Coming to Christ late, not growing up under that kind of preaching? How did you learn that kind of preaching? [00:09:44] Speaker B: I think preaching kind of came natural to me. I was, you know, a party guy of the life of the party. I was PC MC for the night show. That's right. Getting down, having a good time Grab that girl holding on real tight Love to love you, baby Donna Summer. So I used to DJ and do stuff like that. So I've always had kind of a fluidity in my speech, clear thinking, always energetic. [00:10:11] Speaker A: There's a particular style to it that I can listen to an independent Fundamental Baptist preacher from the 70s and pick that out, and I can listen to Ev Hill or whoever. And there's a similarity in that there's a way that they began that's real soft. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Then it builds. [00:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it builds. And then it creates this dynamic of tension and a tragic circumstance and then a resolution. So you do that so well. And is that something that, do you think that's just something culturally is kind of ingrained, or is that learned or what? [00:10:52] Speaker B: I believe a lot of people have said, I know nobody who preach like you. And I become all things to all men. Of course, I preach in every circle I preach. I think I shared with you one Time in Oklahoma, I said I did the Independent Pentecostal Holiness Camp meeting. I left there, went to Bronson and did the Independent Fundamental Baptist Conference in that same year. I did the Southern Baptist Conference with Mike Pastors Conference with Mac Brunson. And in the same year, I did the Charisma Life Pastors Conference in that same year. And I always tell people, I could tell the charismatics where I came from, but I couldn't tell the fundamental boards where I was going. But in those circles, my style has to adapt to where I am. I preach right now in every kind of church. Every kind. I mean, from. I just preached at the 21,000 member community Bible Church, you know, with Ed Newton, you know, and Ed and I. And I realized that my audience is a little different than my audience when I preach in London. You know, they're very stoic. And I do a lot of overseas preaching and these guys, I never lift my voice. I put on a lapel microphone or a countryman and hold a Bible in my hand, whatever I need to do. I'm not one style of preacher. Now. Early in my ministry, I was very evangelistic. I was very. What they would call a dynamic type of preacher. I was very boisterous and very loud and very rapid in my speech. And, you know, it was just kind of natural because I use a lot of scriptures and what they do, they just kind of flow out of me. All right, so now I'm more of a statesman. I'm more of a very methodical. Let me show you using the big screen, giving definitions, breaking things down, letting you see. Giving credit to where I get something from giving credit to a quote and stuff like that, putting the person on the screen, giving a background of them. I want our people to know, to learn. And so that's kind of what I do. And then if it takes me going off what we would call, you know, and making a point and driving something home, I'll do that. But my message is a love message. It's a message of grace. It's a message of hope. It's a message, like you said, well, you know, hey, you start slowly, you paint the picture, right? You create a vicissitude and just say, this happened, that happened, but this is what God did and this is what you can do. And here's where we are. You know, it's just kind of natural. [00:13:29] Speaker A: Has your audience changed in their interaction with you in the pulpit? [00:13:34] Speaker B: Oh, well, you know, audiences change over the years. You know, we are in a very transit city. And when we first Started. We grew so fast, you know, and we were young. I was only 30 years old when I started the ministry, you know, and I was probably the oldest person there. But we grew to over a thousand people in the first year. We were like a voice of one crying in the wilderness. They used to call me Vaughn the Baptist. The voice of one crying in the wilderness. You had to have a roadmap and a compass to find us on Seaboard Avenue, where we started in a trailer park. And we totally transformed that community. We totally went in, and people were coming from everywhere. We went three and four services a week, five services a week. And then the greater part of what we did originally was we were in the streets seven days a week. And the reason we were in worship five days a week or in some type of form of discipleship is because we were in the community seven days a week. We cleaned up neighborhoods. We took our streets with the nails in it. We offered free auto repair, free haircuts, free home repair, free moving service for the community we had. Whatever means we had, we used it to meet the felt needs of the people there. So we were embraced by the community, and the community engaged us. So we saw rapid, exponential growth. Then we had to maintain that growth. Then we moved. And then when you move laterally, you leave the community, you leave people. We move quite a bit of ways. And then we then moved again, and then we build and all the stuff that we've done and the audience. I look back right now, I got staff members that have been on staff with me for 35 years. Church is only 38 years old. I've got literally several staff members and elders and pastors within the church that have been there with me from the beginning, you know, but the audience does change because times have changed. And so, you know, when you were [00:15:29] Speaker A: starting out back in, you know, those first years, pursuing your education, all those things. I know your mother was an entrepreneur, and that a lot of that you learned from her. But who mentored you? Like, who poured into you? Was it a. Some people say yes. You know, the bee visits a lot of flowers and makes its own honey. Is it that sort of thing, or is it. Was there one person that just sort of trained you or what? [00:15:55] Speaker B: It's amazing that this whole bishop thing, for example, came about as a result of me mentoring pastors right in the traditional Baptist setting. And I pastored the First Baptist Church of Green Coast Springs, and I served on staff at Mount Calvary Baptist Church. So that was kind of my framework, you know, but we Were called the Spirit filled Baptists or we were called the Baptistals, you know, and all this kind of stuff. [00:16:21] Speaker A: But it was, and it was predominantly [00:16:22] Speaker B: black church, predominantly black, but it was, you know, affiliated with the National Baptist Convention, Southern Baptist Convention. I had great friends and relatives relationships within the Southern Baptist. And so. But I wasn't confined to that. I called myself a spirit filled biblicist. You know, you could be a biblicist and just be angry and mean. Just the Bible, the Bible, the Bible. But no, I was like, hey, you know, speak things, become sound doctrine, right? What you say should stand the test of time anywhere. So when I became a Christian, here's the crazy part about my journey. I spent two or two months reading the Bible, finally went to a religious service. It's a Baptist church, rather traditional Baptist church. I realized day one, everybody there realized I didn't fit in. I came into the service, first time ever, into a worship service with that big old Bible, the one on the family table under my arm, baby angels on it. I had an 18 and a half inch neck. I had on a 15 inch collared shirt with the clip on tie from the children's department but on the second button. And I came in and I was weeping. I was in the house of God. I was, I was just happy, you know, I was just. I came in and I was happy and I wouldn't sit down. That's actually what happened. And they came over to me, the ushers, and they tried to take my Bible. They were fanning me, you know, and stuff, and I wouldn't sit down and I just had my hands lifted, you know, and they didn't do that there, you know, and I was overwhelmed. I was just, I was, I'm in the house of God, you know. And so about two months later, because of my reputation as a basketball player, you know, hall of famer at Raines High School and all this stuff, they were having a youth thing. And somebody who knew me said, would I speak to the youth? This is the way it happened. So it's three and a half months that I'm a Christian now. And I spoke at a youth function on a Sunday afternoon at the church, on the floor on the side with some kids. The preachers heard me and said, my God, that boy is a preacher. After it was over, the preacher came to me, two of them, and said, brother, the Lord has called you to preach. We'll hear you. I think a month or so later, I didn't know what hear me meant. I didn't know what was happening with that. But a week before we'll hear you that date, my mom said, are you ready? I said, ready. He says, you're preaching next Wednesday, your trial sermon. Hadn't talked back to the preacher yet. That's how traditional the church. That's how crazy it was. So the next week, I look up and it's 400 people sitting out there. I came in the back a little late. Preacher said, well, we're going out. First time I ever stepped in the pulpit, the first time I'd ever been before church. And they sat me in the big chair right in the middle, and I was preaching that day. I hadn't seen my father since I was about 8 years old, and he was sitting on the front row. Wow. I hadn't seen my grandmother in almost 10 years. And she was sitting on the side over there. Family members. My mother had corralled all these people together. And I got up, man, and I preached. [00:20:10] Speaker A: Do you remember your text? [00:20:12] Speaker B: Yeah. First John, victory in Jesus. This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith, you know. And so I was like, victory in Jesus. Our Savior forever, you know, sung that song, and I couldn't sing, but I kind of laid it out and they sang it and I preached. And my father was sitting there. And I remember it just messed me up. I was torn. And I was like in the middle of the message. I was ad living then. Didn't have an outline. Nobody ever taught me anything. I was just naturally. And I looked at him and I said, you weren't there when I went to the prom and didn't go my senior year because I didn't know what a corsage was. You weren't there when I did this and did that. I started directing to him then I said, but God was there. My father, he's my. I was just lost it, man. You know? So anyway, make a long story short. I became kind of a prodigy, kind of a preacher now. But I never had a pastor. I didn't know this guy, right? And so here it is now, two or three months after the trial sermon. Oh, this is great. After the trial sermon, there were people there from other churches, deacons who were looking for pastors, right? So this Baptist church on North Davis street, the head deacon was there as far as the pastor search committee, and he heard me. The man met with me that week, wanted to get my number, and met with me and asked me would I be their pastor. [00:21:43] Speaker A: That's a lot of faith. [00:21:45] Speaker B: I've only been saved three And a half months, Right? Four months, Right. And I knew, being a novice, you know, I knew better than that, right? But I went and preached for them that Sunday. And after I preached for them that Sunday, they still wanted me to be the pastor, right? They said, you preach and we'll run the church. I don't know what they were talking about. Run what church? I got a great job. I'm doing well. So anyway, make a long story short, it was also first Sunday, so they were serving the supper, right? I have never taken the supper yet. Wow. First Sunday. So the first Sunday I go and preach, I get to serve the Lord's Supper, which I've never taken, right? So watch this. Amen. I asked them, what is that? I've never seen it. They said it was the body and the blood of Jesus. I could see the stomach and the head. I was like, oh, it's underneath that she. I thought. I didn't know. I was like. I was tripping. It was funny to me. And so the first time I partook of the Lord's Supper, I was to preach a sermon. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Wow. [00:22:47] Speaker B: The first funeral I've ever attended in my life, I preached it. The first wedding I ever attended outside of my own, I performed it. So that's how rapidly I moved around. That gets back to your question about who mentored me. Well, it was just a few months. Now I'm preaching every week, somebody's calling me. I'm sorry. Every week. I still haven't had a Bible class yet. I still don't know anything about training and biblical discipleship. I'm doing the discipling, right? And so the preacher calls me in. He says, listen, one of us gonna go, and it ain't gonna be me. He says, I was not Baptist. I didn't. What was happening was I was preaching, and when I would leave, people were following me. [00:23:36] Speaker A: He's feeling threat. [00:23:37] Speaker B: He's feeling threatened, right? So anyway, so he turned me loose. And so I became, I guess, an evangelist. You know, I didn't see it as a defeat. I didn't see it as negative. I just said, okay, I'm called to minister. So I took a basketball, started a youth club. I started assisting and just visiting churches and going around. And that's kind of how it happened. And I wound up at the Mount Calvary Baptist Church. Great experience for me. Dr. John Allen Newman, he needed somebody to help with the youth and help with this and that. So me, I had youth club. I came in, he lost his evangelism guy. I came in, but I was already, you know, licensed. He didn't really. And I just served. And I served there for two years as an associate. Monday night I told teacher, staff meeting. Tuesday night, Old Testament survey. Wednesday night, evangelism discipleship training. Thursday night, New Testament survey. Friday night I was the youth pastor. Saturday morning I did the Boy Scouts, the Scoutish trust, brother lawyer, helper, friendly Curtis County. And then Sunday morning I taught Sunday school school, reviewed mass, Sunday school and turned it over to him. In my two and a half plus years there, I only preached there one time on a Sunday morning, maybe twice on a Sunday morning. I served. I was a servant at heart. That's what I did. I cleaned the building, did everything I needed to do, lived there for the first year for nothing. I was on staff, but I wasn't getting paid. And then after about a year, I started getting a couple hundred dollars a week before taxes and left a six figure job to take on that position for nothing forever. I walked away, resigned from the railroad and served there. And then from there a good friend of mine died. First Baptist Church in Greenco Springs. And I did down for the funeral, heard my voice and they asked me would I preach again. And I did again, and I did again. And they were without a pastor. So I went down for about 11 months as an interim pastor. We grew from 38 to 600 in seven months with no music. It was a move. The papers, Florida time union had it passed to turn city upside down. Green Coat Springs, people were coming from everywhere, sitting on their cars, the windows open in the building. It was revival. And like Philip in the middle of that revival in the middle in Samaria, he says, now I want you to go join this chariot down in the desert. I want to send you to Gaza. So I got up and left there in the middle of revival and resigned and didn't know where I was going. And two weeks later, after the final message there, I wound up starting the ministry that it is today. Still no pastor, still no mentor, still nothing. We grew to over 750 before I ever had a Bible class. And then in the town back then, you had Luther Rice, you had people like Gene Sykes, you had Youngblood, you had Gerald Powers, you had Stanford Crews, you had all these guys who were well known theologians and scholars and stuff here. So I went over to North Florida Baptist Theological Seminary, which was around the corner from the church, right? And we had grown so fast that I started taking bibliology, Old Testament survey, New Testament survey and hermeneutics. I mean, that's where you start. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:14] Speaker B: That's it. Right. So I was taking those courses, and in the midst of me taking those courses, and I completed that first two semesters of courses. But I was such a bright student and had such a model of ministry that the next year they asked me, would I teach church growth and would I teach hermeneutics and homiletics? Because they heard me preach and teach and heard me use the Scriptures. So I became a professor there in the first year of the seminary. [00:27:46] Speaker A: We really need to pray about getting you a mentor. [00:27:48] Speaker B: I need a mentor. And so from there, started mentoring others and started teaching and preaching. And, you know, Zach, it's a whole lot in between, but that's the gist of it. And so from there, I started pastor church. The church just continued to grow and continued to grow, continued to grow. And I started traveling the world. I was on television for free. I was on the board of Acts Television. Yeah, that happened. I was invited to come to a board meeting to be sold some time on the radio. Before I went back then, computers had just came out. I went online with the little thing, the data lineup, and I read about TV production and read about this stuff and cameras. So I have great retention memory. I got great. So I walked into the meeting and started talking about the cameras that are used right now around the world and how this and that. They were so impressed. They made me a board member and gave me all the free TV time that I would want. [00:28:46] Speaker A: That's awesome. You know who the story reminds me of? And this is going to sound strange to people watching. You'll understand it because you'll know the history, but Jerry Falwell. Jerry, you remind me. Your story reminds me of Jerry Falwell. There was a man that led Jerry Falwell to Christ in Jacksonville, was able to do a funeral with him before he passed away. And he said, when he came to Christ, because I said. I asked him, I said, was he immediately a leader? Like, did. Did you know that he could do what he ultimately accomplished by anybody's, you know, whatever your perspective on his ideology and politics would be, he accomplished a lot. Liberty University and Thomas Road and all that. And he said, zach, he said, from the day he came to Christ, there was a group of kids following him. And he had been a street kid. He had been basically a gang guy back then, had a little group of guys that he got in trouble with, came to Jesus, and then everywhere he went, they would go, too. And he was just a natural born leader and could set out with a Vision set out to accomplish something and get it done. [00:29:59] Speaker B: That is kind of. And I could see the relationship there because I was always a leader. I was always that guy, especially playing sports and stuff. I was always big furs, you know, I never sat on a bench, you know, and all those kind of things. So by nature. And again, you mentioned my mother earlier, who raised five boys by herself working three jobs. That's why I never attended a church service. That's why I wasn't introduced to Jesus. That's why I didn't go to a church growing up, because I started working at 10 years old with my mom. Three jobs. I had a paper route. I cut french fries at a local chicken joint that she was assistant manager of. And then I ran numbers. So I was a numbers guy in the community. I would collect for my mom. And then later on I went to work for daylight groceries as a bag boy, but still got a paper route and still cutting those french fries over there while playing three sports at the same time. So my work ethic, the energy that I might display now, you know, you put your button, you ask me a question, I talk it out. You know, I've always been that way. I've always. I'm a good listener, but I. Sharing my testimony, it's natural for me. Saying what I went through is natural for me. You can wake me up anytime, morning. It's consistent. And that's when you kind of know, I tell people all the time is you kind of know it's consistent that it's real. And so I've always been, yeah, a leader. It's kind of hard. I submitted myself once to a man in ministry that I looked up to and still look up to, kind of sort of. He was more in charismatic and more into. I found out later, you know, kind of Reconstructionists and, you know, all this kind of stuff. But what I was doing, doing in marketplace ministry, he had the vernacular for it, you know, he had the nomenclature. He knew, he. He wrote about it and all this kind of stuff. But he said one day and we were talking, he says, man, I always wanted a spiritual son, but I didn't know that God would send me Mike Tyson, you know, you know, and. And so it was kind of difficult because of the vastness of what I do do and the ministry that I do do. You know, I have hundreds of pastors, you know, plus churches around the world that I'm responsible for. That's this whole thing about the bishop thing, right? [00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:33] Speaker B: In the Baptist circles, you know, when I preach at the Southern Baptist, you know, the Independent. I don't go in there. Bishop McLaughlin. I'm Pastor Vaughn McLaughlin or Reverend. They call me Reverend, you know, whatever they want to call me, that's what I am. The bishop thing came like this. I was covering and mentoring about 40 pastors. A friend of mine was up north where this whole bishop thing is a lot more acceptable and stuff up there because of the liturgical churches. And he said he was going to this place called the College of Bishops, which is an African American tradition. They didn't have any real order or structure. People just out here just having little small groups, but they didn't know how to manage the groups. So this whole College of Bishop thing taught you how to have jurisdiction and how to set up, you know, order and all this kind of stuff. Well, that wasn't me. I'm not a robe wearing, miter wearing, you know, staff carrying preacher. You know, I'm not from that tradition. I'm not from that string. So. But he said this to me. He said, I've got three churches that I work with, you've got 35. They invited me to go. He said, listen, if I'm a bishop, you the Pope, you know, so he said, the least you can do is just go to the training with me. Because from that perspective, even the bishop is just an overseer of overseas. Right, right. And so that's the way I viewed it. Not some type of formal, ecumenical or ecclesiastical or liturgical thing. No, for me it was like, okay, I've written under Caesar, with Caesar, because I did travel in those circles and preaching in those circles. And a lot of times, you know, people just want to know your credentials and where you're from. Have you been trained? Have you done it didn't hurt me to go to the school at Case Western Reserve University. So for three summers I went to Case Western for the six week seminars. And so that's how that happened. And then afterwards, they wanted to consecrate me as a bishop. And it was one of the biggest events in Jacksonville. The governor, the mayor, everybody was there. All of the dignity, the Terrace City Council and everybody. It was a huge event, over 4,000 people, and it was very memorable. I have people to this day say that that service was unbelievable, but it didn't make me right. It was an affirmation and a confirmation of what I already was and what God was doing in my life. And it was just being a mentor to mentors and just being a covering for people who even cover other people. And so it kind of gave some hierarchy and kind of gave some respect and regard, because I did it right. [00:35:09] Speaker A: Well, and you became that. You became that mentor to a lot of people you didn't have for yourself. [00:35:13] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. [00:35:14] Speaker A: You became, you know. [00:35:15] Speaker B: Now let's get back to when you have about the mentor, because it's the consecration that almost brought me to tears when you said that earlier, because here's what happened during the consecration. Remember thousands of people and this and that. I was told that I should get three gifts, one for my natural father, one for my spiritual father, and one for a mentor. Natural father, pastor or spiritual father, which a pastor is not necessarily a spiritual father. A person could be a pastor of a church and have done nothing to help an individual to develop or to grow. They were just the pastor of the church that you were a member of. But so many times we call that spiritual father. But this is a spiritual father, one who begats. Paul said, I'm your. I begat you in the faith. So you got a father, spiritual father, and you got a mentor. Three seats are placed in these consecrations for those people so that you acknowledge those people. All three seats were empty. And as I turned to the chairs and I turned back to the audience, I just stood there. I stood there weeping because all three chairs wept. And it's not something that I purposed. It's not something that I planned. And I understand leadership, and I understand mentoring. I'm doing that. I'm writing on that. I mean, I got situation. I understand. Understand submission, I understand humility. I understand servitude. I understand all of that. But like Paul said, I didn't run up to Jerusalem to consult with them. I spent time in the desert, you know, developing this message of grace. And the Lord taught me. And it's kind of hard to say that nowadays that the Lord is your mentor, the Lord is your shepherd. Well, he is. You know, so I didn't have that. And Zach, it never felt like I was orphaned. It never felt that I needed it. I was just an oddity. I was just different. And I realized that. And I teach submission and humility and servitude. And I serve everyone. I serve any and everybody that gets in my way. And so, yeah, but I didn't. [00:37:35] Speaker A: That's true. [00:37:36] Speaker B: That's true. But I didn't have any mentor and don't have a pastor and didn't have a cover. [00:37:42] Speaker A: My previous church in Alabama, I was in Huntsville. The Huntsville region up in Alabama is how I met Scott Dawson. It was NASA was the main employer There you had Redstone Arsenal was a military. And 70% of the people in our church were engineers. And I was raised in a similar environment in that my dad was very entrepreneurial, he could grow anything. Dad dropped out of high school in 10th grade, went to work, provided for a family. Mother started a little florist and gift shop. Dad got laid off. He was an insulator. He got laid off when they discovered asbestos was dangerous. So early 80s, he gets laid off. He's just hanging around mom's shop. She's begun. He starts looking at the numbers and he's like, I think I can buy it cheaper and make a little more profit margin for you if you'll let me play with it some. So she deferred to him. She wanted to design, he wanted to run the business, built it up to become the largest of its kind in the Southeast. I mean, it was a very successful business. And so I was raised reading those self improvement books, Zig Ziglar, all that kind of stuff. And then I went to pastor these engineers. And it was a different language that I had to learn to speak to those engineers. And it was difficult for me. Church grew, it was successful by any kind of standard, but it never felt natural to me because I was talking a different language. I came here to North Florida. We're in a resort community here on Amelia Island. So there's a lot of people who've built businesses and. And have had to think outside the box and think strategy and marketing and all these things that know how to look at bottom lines, that can agree on a vision and a plan. And so this has been much more native and natural to me. You planted. I think you started with 40 people. If I read right first Sunday with [00:39:40] Speaker B: the kids and everybody around 40, maybe 5. [00:39:43] Speaker A: 40. So you start out. Did you attract those kind of people? Did you attract people who wanted to grow, who were entrepreneurial by nature? [00:39:54] Speaker B: On Sunday, I leave for Africa, and I'll be there with the president of Oral Roberts University. We'll be doing a conference there. We do it annually. He's his first time coming, and I can't wait to see him. Because the vision for our ministry started at Oral Roberts University. It didn't start in the academic portion of it. It started in the pray town. I went to Oklahoma for a conference, and while I was there, I spent three days in the prayer tower, walking those stairs every day to go up there with a legal pad and a pen. I had just resigned from the church in Greenco Springs, First Baptist Church down there. And First African Baptist Church down there. And that was key, too. I went down and being Mr. Love Everybody. So I went down and wanted to take the African off of the church. And, man, that was the worst mistake I could have ever made. And that was the First African Baptist Church there. Because in the brush harbors of Ringcoat Springs, there was segregation. So they had to start their own church. So it was First African. That's their identity and that's their history, right? So I say First Baptist, for some people might think about First Baptist down there, but it's the First African Missionary Baptist Church there. So I had resigned from there because I'm a city boy and I was in the country. And I was there temporarily because they didn't have a pastor. So when I resigned in revival, I went to Oral Arbors University Prayer Town for three days. I prayed all day, every day, and I wrote down. After observing ministry, after seeing the do's and the don'ts, after seeing how people do what they do, seeing this lack of ecclesiology amongst many churches, nobody understood the nature, the purpose and the structure of the church as the Bible. I used to always say we should resemble something that God had in mind when he said, should be familiar. Yeah, be familiar. So. So I wrote down. I said, christians go to eat after every service. Why don't they have their own restaurant? We go bowling and have to inhale the smoke and stuff. Why don't you have your own bowling alley? You know, people get the hair done, or in our hood, get the hair did. And why not have your own barbershop, your own salon, you know, complain about the educational system. Why not have your own educational system? So these are the things that I said that we need to do. Because the church, as I read it, should be meeting the total needs of the total man. That we should be involved in people's lives and socially empowering them, economically empowering them, educationally empowering them and spiritually empowering them. I get it from Genesis 1:28, the mandate of God. We've been called to be fruitful and to multiply, to replenish, subdue and have dominion. In Luke chapter 19, we are to occupy until he comes to barter the trade, to do the work of a banker. That's business. And so I wasn't hindered by somebody telling me I couldn't do it. And that's one of the beauties of not having a mentor or covering stuff. Because they have a strong tendency, superintendents and folk, to say, you can't. Right? We never. That's not what we do. So I didn't have any of that. So what I had was a clean slate. Just like in my salvation, I had a clean slate slate. And now to be able to plant a church and to start a ministry don't about planting a church, but starting a church, there's no method. There's nowhere in the Bible where it teaches you how to plant a church right? Jesus said, I'll build my church. And as a leader, he raised me up. And so here I am now. I was magnetic. People were being drawn to me and I had to lead them right. So how would I lead them right? From the day one, I wrote down in that prayer tower everything that you see manifest in our ministry today, bar none. Everything. Poitier, 1988 and in 1988, June 17, I stood up and I read from that legal pad what I had written down in that prayer tower. And I said, this is who we're going to be from that point on. If you came to our ministry that was read regularly, that was posted, if you came to our ministry, that's what you were coming to be a part of. That's what you were coming. And initial people embraced it, bought into it, and it's been nothing different. So when you start right, I always tell people you can end right. So we started with a strong vision from God and we started with a strong biblical foundation because I was just bent on discipling people and teaching sound doctrine. I just wanted people to be balanced and to represent God properly and to preach a message that can prick the hearts of the worst sinners out there and bring them in and have a place for them to come, a bed, be an acute care center, heal them and send them back out to reproduce after their own kind. So that's always been our concept. So our philosophy was where Jesus is Lord, love abounds, and everyone is an evangelist. That's how we our theme. We had a philosophy of ministry where the corporate environment of our ministry is corporate and not individual. The start of our ministry is God and not human activity. The guide for our ministry is the Bible and not human wisdom. And then so when we have that as our basis, then everybody who comes in on our staff, they know that. So they know this is who we are, this is what we do. We've evolved over the years. We, that's how we stay flexible. We change. They've been asking me to write a manual, different magazines and stuff, Christian publication, Christianity and everybody. And I said, I can't write a manual because if you come back next year. That's not what we're going to be doing. It's outdated. So the deal is that's how we started. And so from there we've just seen the good hand of the Lord on our lives. Favor. Unbelievable, Zach. And I think when you're called and chosen and Jesus grew in stature and favor with God and man, that the early church had favor with all the people. You know, I think that that favor, that part right there, through submission to God's will, he gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey him. He empowers people that obey him. And so for me, that's what it's been. I got 38 years, 38 years of ministry, 51 years I've been with my wife, 48 years of marriage. Our church is by the grace of God, scandal free in 38 years. My marriage, my wife, my boo boo, my one of a kind. She's just been my best friend for 51 years. Met her in college on the first day when I arrived in Tennessee. And that's been the key to our success as a ministry. The unity and the harmony that we have at home is able to be expressed at the church. I've never had an argument with a member. I've never had a fight, never had a church split, never had a mutiny on the bounty. You know, people talk about betrayal. If they were out there, it didn't bother me. You know, I just do what I do. And so I believe first natural, then spiritual. And so my house, my kids are both full time ministry and loving God and never forced them to give an Easter speech or put on a suit or a dress or nothing like that. It's just a natural thing. They watched us. And one of the most beautiful things in the world is when your kids can watch you do what you do and want to do it themselves. And so that's been key for us. [00:47:29] Speaker A: It's when those who know you the best love and respect you the most. [00:47:32] Speaker B: Exactly. And then want to aspire to do what you do. [00:47:36] Speaker A: So when I was beginning in ministry, we were, you know, this is back. I came to Christ through radio and I would listen to different programs and I send a little bit of money that I could give as I could, and I probably sent $25 to folks on the family at some point and they would send me all their stuff and they would send you the tapes, tape of the month type thing. A tape came through and it was by Bill Hybels at the time, who at that point had one of the leading churches in the country. And Hybels did a talk on surviving success. And so I thought when I saw the title, wow, it's easy to survive success, it's a failure. You got to survive, you know, how do you. What's he talking about? So I listened to was one of the most important talks that I'd ever heard given on leadership and taking care of yourself out of all that it's going to demand of you, and you know, what you've done, what the Lord's called you into. There's any one of those things, building a business or multiple businesses, buying a mall, you know, that was crazy. Starting a church, the education, any, the health issues, all of those. There's any one of those things that could have, could have put you in a really bad spot. And I trust that during all those seasons that you've had ups and downs emotionally or in some way, there's been dark nights of the soul. And I don't want you to go anywhere you don't want to go. But I want you to talk to me about surviving success in the dark times. What was it? How did you press through those times, [00:49:19] Speaker B: the dark nights of the soul? My wife and I were on the 700 Club and Pat Robinson asked us. It was Ben Kinchlow asked us about the dark nights of the soul. We see what you've done publicly. What struggles did you have privately? You know, what were the assaults or the attacks? What were the most daunting moments in your life? My wife and I are weird because she answered before I did. And we both were like, what do you mean? There are expected attacks, there are expected betrayals, there are expected deficiencies that will come, but we will never end over our heads. We've been able to crew now and be able to accomplish some stuff. Imagine $60 million worth of properties debt free. And we've never had a building fund drive, a capital stewardship program. We've never had a philanthropic gift. We never had a government, federal, state, city, local grant with a bunch of blue collar people from the hood, right? I always tell people God called me and where God guides, he provides my stability comes from. I truly believe my upbringing and the call of God on my life. I'm not daunted by darkness. I can't remember a moment to where I feared. That's the one thing that the Bible says we can't do. Fear. Do not be afraid. Do not fear. I embraced the reality of that commentary the first week of my salvation. [00:51:25] Speaker A: And that seems like that was the Dark night. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:51:28] Speaker A: You know, that closet experience. [00:51:30] Speaker B: Exactly. That was the trauma that I came out of and what I experienced to begin with and to find the comfort of God in it, that God is my refuge and my very present help in a time of trouble. Those are not just scripture quotes for me. Those are realities for me. Have there been times where we stopped and said, ooh, how are we going to do this? Lord Jesus, help us. Yes, yes. But he always does it. We've never missed a light bill, a mortgage payment. We've never been laid. We have perfect credit with all the banks. I've worked with federal regulators to help other banks come up and do their thing and get it right. Right now. We employ right now 11 accountants for a hood church that started with nothing, with my wife and two kids and 34 adults on a Sunday morning. And we're still here, you know, so we have always never had to scuffle or scratch or do those type of things because we listen. Here's key. If somebody listening to me is key. I mean this from my heart. We've done a lot. Sometimes when you talk about what you've done, you sound like you're boasting, but you're just testifying. And here's what I testify to. I have never in my life wanted to do anything for God. I have never in my life had personal aspirations or goals and said, I'm going to do this before this year or that year. When people I'm building right now, high school right now, people say, when is it going to be done? I said, when it's finished. So here's the deal. I never wanted to do anything for God. I wanted to allow God to do something through me. And so it's not what we do for Christ that will last, but it's what Christ does through us that will last. So because it's not my effort, because it's not my idea, because it's not my dream, because it's not something I want to do, I don't sweat myself over it. If what I saw doesn't get done because I'm totally surrendered to God. And if he wants to change his mind, he can change his mind. If he shows it to me and I start pursuing it, it don't work. Then there must be something else. Allah, Abraham and Isaac. God told Abraham, take your son, your only son, the son of promise, and offer him on that mountain. He takes the wood, he takes everything necessary, goes up, builds the altar, lays his son on that altar while he's back with the Knife. There's a voice from heaven. We call it a double annunciation of deity. God speaking twice. Abraham. Abraham. 2020. Truly, truly. Whenever he says something twice, he's trying to change something. So here it is. Abraham. Abraham. Kill him. Don't kill him. There's a ram caught in the thicket. Abraham does not kill. Isaac comes down off the mountain. The people down on the ground heard Abraham say he was going to kill his son. And by faith, he did. Right. But he didn't. Why God changed his mind. God said, I just wanted to see if you wanted the promise and the blessing more than you want me. So he comes back off the mountain. So I tell people this all the time, Zach, and I tell somebody that. Listening to. Listening to me right now. Listen to me carefully. You will never, ever be successful in ministry doing what God told you to do. You'll only be successful if you're able to do what God is telling you to do. And so many people are stuck in this and stuck in that because God told them that, and they don't have the ability to do what he's telling them. And I think the key to our ministry is being able to hear God on a continual basis and know that God can do whatever he wants to do with you. Because I have blueprints on buildings that I never built. I marched around Jericho style, around places that I thought was ours. And I've done it by faith, and it didn't come to pass, wasn't a disappointment. God had something better. [00:55:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. There's the strategy and the tactics. [00:55:44] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:55:45] Speaker A: Yeah. That's what a military guy said. He said, the strategy doesn't change, but those tactics are going to change. [00:55:50] Speaker B: Tactics are going to change. [00:55:51] Speaker A: You know, I'm thinking probably, you know, we've talked about earlier. A lot of people listen to these things, watch these videos, and I think a lot of angels and demons are eavesdropping as well. And I think probably it probably ticks off the demons. They're probably thinking, oh, we nearly destroyed you a few times. You just forgot about it, you know, [00:56:11] Speaker B: and again and again, that's normal. See, for me, it's like, who was it? Spurgeon or whoever said they were in the bed and. And they were trying to get to sleep, and there was this demonic presence standing there. The demonic presence. He looks over and says, oh, it's just you, you know, rolls over, go back to sleep. That's kind of how we, my wife and I, perceives spiritual attacks, principalities and powers, rules of darkness, spiritual wisdom. They're there, the warfare is real. You're. [00:56:45] Speaker A: I don't know how much of it is spiritual, how much of it's natural, but you're very optimistic. You're a very optimistic and faith filled person in that way. And I am too by nature. That's my nature. When I left my first church, went to my second church. The gentleman who was going to follow me in Lancaster Baptist up in Kentucky, he calls me and says, so tell me, what are the problems? There's no problems. I've been there four years. There's no problems. They're sweet. People love them to death. It's growing, it's just a great place. You've received God's favor by being called to this church. And he was there for about three months and he calls me and says, you didn't tell me about Bob. And honestly I went, oh yeah, I forgot about Bob. Bob's a problem. But I just don't. You don't dwell on it. [00:57:31] Speaker B: So I can, you and I can have a conversation as passive, right? I could bring you on our campus if you've been and we can walk around and I'll probably say to you now, that one right there, yeah, that's a headache. That's a headache right there. But it's normal. Those are the things that. [00:57:46] Speaker A: And you can't dwell on it. [00:57:47] Speaker B: You can't dwell on it. Those things that make it, but they can't. You can't disorder order. That's why you have to have order in the house. When there is order and the structure and a proper ecclesiology, then anybody that is detrimental to that sticks out like a sore thumb, right? And I don't have to handle it. I've had situations where somebody's come to our church and they want to join, they start going through new member stuff and you can see that they obviously don't fit, right? And I've had some of my pastors come to me and say, hey pastor, remember the guy, the guy that had the hat on that gave the nigga, he's gone, don't worry about it. We took care of that for you, right? You know, and they literally know and got with him and said, this is not the place for you. So I don't. When I give invitations, very seldom do I give an invitation for membership. I do not give invitation for membership. Maybe once or twice a year. A year. I just feel like if you're supposed to be here, we won't be able to get rid of you. You're going to ask somebody and There are tables out front and this and that where you can go to and people that are there. But I don't from the pulpit say you get 3,000 people in there. Right. We see 4,000 people in our term. Right. You may have. Let's say you got 3,000 people in there and you say, how many of you need a church home? You may have 150 people stand up that want to make that their church, but it's not where God sent them. Yeah. And so I'm not trying to get numbers of members. I'm trying to make disciples. I was teaching in a Bible study last night, and this may seem odd for some people. You can go back and take a look at it. But I basically had a couple of people get up and leave because they were so distracting, having full conversations, had a baby and the bottle and this and that. That's not the order of the house, of the church there. It's on this camera. You can hear them, the baby hiding and this and that. But they were visiting for the second time. Right. So they had five kids in the youth church. While we're in the main sanctuary, it's all adult, but we have nursery. We have a place for the kid. But they wouldn't take them there, so we had to have somebody to escort them there. Or when they went to talk to them, they got a little angry and they got up and left. And of course, I have people on staff that called them outside, administered to them and gave me their number. And I'm going to call them today and say, hey, but you know, we don't have that. [01:00:07] Speaker A: You're creating a culture. [01:00:09] Speaker B: You're creating a culture. [01:00:10] Speaker A: Right. [01:00:10] Speaker B: And when you have that culture created, people conform to it. When they come in and they see it, especially massly. Yeah, they see it and they go, oh, this is how you do. You don't go to a courthouse and stand up and sit down when the judge comes in, stand up when he sits down. You don't go to a school and sit in a college classroom and go to sleep and. Well, I did, but, you know, you [01:00:32] Speaker A: know, culture always wins. They say, you know, and that's very important. Knowing what you're trying to build and your people knowing what you're trying to build and conveying that and protecting it, it's really important. [01:00:42] Speaker B: But it's been 38 years for me building the same culture. And so it is a natural flow now. And I think I'm on the other side of developing and I'm more of maintaining and continue to Grow and so grow the culture and adapt to the culture, because the culture as a whole has just changed so much. Covid has created just such a gap in the life for so many people who lost two and a half years of fellowship and communing with each other and submission and all that kind of stuff. So I attack young people too. I teach theology for 16 years to 35 year olds on what we call Theology Cafe. Great, great, great ministry. Just trying to recapture those kids who at the most pivotal time in their life, 16, 17 years old, got inundated with social media and these different voices out here, different genres of ministry and all this kind of stuff. We got to corral them and focus them on a local church, with a local, local church pastor and teachers and small groups and stuff. People that can put their hands on and trust and listen to above all others. And so those type of things we do also. [01:01:58] Speaker A: And you don't talk about this much and I'm not, and I'm not going to push you. Of course, if you're not comfortable talking with it, we'll just cut this part out. But as far as being a pastor of pastors, you, you influence a lot of people, but you influence a lot of people that are highly influential. And I've got my guilty pleasures. We all got our guilty pleasures. And I was listening to Cat Williams when he came to Jacksonville and he talked about you in the middle of the set. And I'm sitting there going, man, I knew the preachers that he knew. I love Cat Williams. I love his work. I think he's a great man. He's a brilliant man. [01:02:37] Speaker B: He's a great mind. [01:02:38] Speaker A: He really is. So I heard that and I thought, okay, I gotta ask him about that. How did you get that kind of relationship with someone who's in front of so many people? And I know there's many others that you've influenced. [01:02:51] Speaker B: One of the ways you get it is the businesses. And you have a record company, recording studio, things that we've done over the years, people that we produce and band and all this kind of stuff, but also have the businesses. The soul food bistro is. We just won best comfort food in the state of Florida. We won food networks, hoodie awards, all this kind of stuff. So we're well known and recognized. So when a lot of these entertainers, let's say for example, like Cat, when he came to town to do the show, well, they're going to tell him to eat at the best restaurant in town. That's the Potter's house. Soul food bistro, right? He tasted those oxtails and cornbread and macaroni cheese and collard greens. He like to lost his mind, you know. And so they want to meet, they want to talk. They, you know, they want to. They advertise, they promote for somebody to be that impacted that they will talk about it in their show. I've been in Africa and people have heard I'm from the Potter's house and asked me about the restaurant because of Scott Williams, right? And Steve Harvey because of those guys. And so, you know, we. We know a lot of people. I've done a lot of stuff with NFL and with some other things and stuff. And, you know, I just kind of. What's really weird now is I can go to a movie or I can sit at home and watch something on television and see people that I know, you know. And I said, it's a small world. I said, these people that everybody's making a fuss over, they might pick up the phone and call me and go, hey, I need prayer. You know, what's going on here? [01:04:25] Speaker A: You've got to speak into their lives, [01:04:26] Speaker B: and you get to speaking to their lives. And I was doing a podcast like this from my house, and I had behind me on the wall, I had some pictures on the wall behind me, and somebody was watching, took note of the pictures of the people that were on the wall. And they said, that's Michael Ely. They said, that's Dr. J. They were like, hey, that's Fred Hammond. Hey, that's, you know, it's me and them, you know, and that's Eliel Coombe. Hey, that's so and so on, you know, and they go like, who is he? You know, what's going on here? But I think making yourself available to people and loving everybody, you know, I think that my personality is just such that, hey, whosoever will, you know, whoever I engage, I'm going to engage them. I go into restaurants right now and I walk around the restaurant before I'm sitting when they give some sit me down. I walk around the restaurant to see who I know or don't know. And generally 70% of the time I pick a table that I'm gonna pay for the meal, right? I don't care, eight, nine people, I don't care what they ordered. I'm gonna pay for the meal, you know, and you start doing stuff like that and sowing into people like that and blessing people like that. And I believe God opens up doors for you. I believe that you reap what you Sow I believe that, you know, just showing yourself friendly, you'll have friends. And that's what I do. So if I met a celeb, not a celeb to me, I know the ultimate, you know, celebrity. I know the ultimate man. And so everybody wanes in in light of that. But I am, I do know quite a few people and quite a few folk there even in. I'm not a politician, I don't get involved in politics now that's the last thing I'm going to do. But when it comes to just everyday life and whether it be sports or entertainment or just people who are very popular in some genre of life. Yeah, I'll make myself available. [01:06:27] Speaker A: What are you most excited about right now? And it's on your plate. You got a lot of stuff going on. What do you really get pumped about right now? [01:06:35] Speaker B: Well, training young people, equipping them theologically. We're about 30% into the building of our new high school. [01:06:47] Speaker A: Where is that? [01:06:48] Speaker B: It's going to be built on the campus of the mall. We actually did away with our bowling alley. We actually gutted out about 47,000 square foot of the mall and construction is flying. And also we're adding an 18,000 square foot gym on the mall site as well. But we still have the high school site on Lane Avenue. We have the middle school, elementary school. We have hundreds, hundreds of kids and we still. But we're bringing it over and we need to build state of the art. We had taken a former auto repair shop and car dealership and had converted it into first our sanctuary and church campus and then we converted to school. The buildings are 70 something years old. So we kind of. It's outdated. So we knew we needed to build, but we couldn't afford to go somewhere new land going to the ground and spend $20 million. So here we already had existing structure. So basically it's a remodel, but it's going to be remodeled. State of the art labs, STEM labs, auto repair shops stuff, everything. Vocational stuff. I'm excited about that. To be able to see the future there. Tying it into our digital stuff, our AI studio and stuff and teaching sound for the church ministry and multimedia for the many social media stuff and just training and teaching young people. And so at my age and at this stage, I want to die empty and fulfilled. I want to, I want to leave something, an inheritance with these kids. Not just brick and mortar, but they will be able to possess and we're first generation of people that will leave something in our communities. In an African American tradition, all you get is a building, an old church building, high steeple, few people, and you pass it on. Here we're the epicenter for the Normandy Village area of town. We've been registered as the most activity. Our restaurants, our fitness center. I had indoor pool, Jacuzzi, steam room, sauna, trainers, rental offices, day offices, stuff you can do training. I've got all kinds of stuff going on in there. It's a mall, and it's got shops and stores and stuff. And so people come there. And our church facility is on the campus. The transit's on our property, the people off the street there. There's so much activity. I've got all this activity going on and no security systems or nothing because we're secured with people there around the clock, 24 hours, we've got. Even the people on the street not going to let anything go on at the father's house, because we feed them Tuesdays and Thursdays. We're the largest food distribution center in Jacksonville. And so we supply food for hundreds of people a week. We have people that haven't bought groceries in 11 years, that never set foot in our church. These are people from the community who have tapped into our outreaches and the things that we do. So that's who we are, and that's what we do. And that's my life flow. Matthew 25. When I was hungry, you fed me naked, you clothed me in prison, you visited me in hospital, you came to see me. You took care of the widows and the orphans, the outcasts, the disenfranchised, the hurting, the needy. That's the life flow of our ministry, and that's what makes us tick. What makes us tick is even diving through the 1040 window, you know, because traditionally, that's not something you do with a local church in the hood, but we got churches in India, Africa, South America, Australia, people that we work with and things that we do that we sow into because we believe in it. And I think that just came from reading the Bible. That did not come from denominational headquarters. That did not come from a model, from some organization. That came from reading the Bible. And I think that's been key for me. The Bible, the word of God, I go nowhere without this. I go nowhere. You know, I tell our young people, stop reading your Bible through your phone. You can be on your phone sitting at the bus stop reading the Bible, but people are going to think you're scrolling on your phone. But if you have a Bible and they see you reading The Bible. It's an opportunity for you to witness, for you to share your faith. So I'm getting everybody back. I just went out the other day out of my own pocket and bought like 40 something bibles for my Bible class. I want them to have the same Bible. I want them to have the Elizabethan English. I wanted them to be able to quote the scriptures exactly and have some harmony with it. So when you guys are studying together, you can learn the scriptures and study them and quote them like Jesus did say, then it is written. He quoted from the King James. No. So anyway, I try to give them the word of God and I'm excited about what I see in the young people because there's a resurgence in our young people in our ministry and I know that they're the future and I know I won't be here forever. And I want them to have everything they need to be able to establish the kingdom to where the gates of hell have established themselves and get God some glory. Amen. [01:11:51] Speaker A: I began doing this because I felt guilty that for whatever reason, the Lord had let me have a few conversations like we had today, and only myself and my wife would get to get to hear the truth, principles of passion that you're conveying. And so that's why we set these cameras up and that's when we put these mics up. Lights. Because I want to share what you've said in this hour. I want to share it with a lot of people. [01:12:19] Speaker B: You have done something, Zack, and you're doing something. I told you when you mentioned it to me, I said, oh, I've checked you out. You deal with every kind of topic and every kind of situation. But it's commendable that a senior pastor of a local church would reach out and be a unifier and reach out across denominational lines, across political lines and reach out and just say, hey, here's the talk, here's what's going on, here's what's happening. What does the Lord say about it? Or what do you say about it? And it generates questions, multifarious queries, and people will search themselves and people will say, well, where do I stand? What is it that I'm supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be doing this? And I think talking to me today and whoever's listening for me is just motivation to say, hey, this is one individual, this is his story. This is. You asked him that, he answered, right. So it may not be the way you do it. You may not understand it, you may not understand why A local church would own a mall and establish stores and have their own school and have their own this and have their own that and do those type of things. And I would say that read the Word of God, because before I ever attended any church, I read the Word of God and I saw what I'm doing some kind of way through the eyes of the Spirit in the scriptures. [01:13:40] Speaker A: I believe that. [01:13:41] Speaker B: And so because of that, I have all the conviction in the world that I need to continue to do what I do and not let any of these things move me and not be daunted or fearful because of the attacks are going to come. Man, you get hit. I get. People send you messages and people who don't agree with you. That's just part of it. It's part of it. But that's spiritual. I mean, that's like leaders, you know, but the people who are hungry for truth, they don't care about all that stuff. [01:14:10] Speaker A: And you know this. I think it's really awesome that we live in a time where this can be said and said sincerely. Bringing you here today is. I'm not trying to build a bridge. I'm not trying to break down a wall. I just deeply love admire you, brother. And I. And I want to sit under you and I want to listen to you. I want you some of that to rub off on me and my people. I want to be like you when I grow up. You didn't have a mentor, but you've been a mentor to a lot of people. And so thank you for coming on [01:14:35] Speaker B: our show today, Zach. Thank you for having me. Woohoo.