Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sa.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Back to Code Red. My name is Zach Terry and I am honored today to welcome to the studio my friend for many, many years, Pastor Hernan Sierra. Welcome to our show.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Well, brother, it's, it's, it's an honor to be here with you. I have seen your podcast and, and, well, I'm honored. I'm, I'm, I'm just honored.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Well, it's our privilege to have you on.
You've been on before, but you came on virtually. Yeah, you were during the election, I think we were doing an election night coverage. Had you on to talk about sort of Trump and South America, Central America, and a little bit about immigration policy and things like that. Today you're here for our global impact celebration. And so you did a fantastic job, by the way, last night with your sermon.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Well, praise the Lord.
I just read the Word and try to stay away from just giving my opinions.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Yes, it was a, it was a, not only a thoughtful, well done delivery of the truth, but it was you, you crafted it well. What was the, the Greek word? The Greek phrase for to live is Christ.
Do you remember the heartbeat illustration?
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
To Saint Christos. Yeah.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: So you said that over and over.
And last night as I was trying to go to sleep after a busy day, that phrase was just in my mind of to live as Christ.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: And you see, it's like a heartbeat.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: It is such a great insight.
Have you heard? Did you come up with that?
[00:02:14] Speaker A: I guess is what I'm asking preacher to preach. No, no, no, no. Actually, and I cannot.
I gotta trace it to where I read it. I think I read it.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: So many things are like that, aren't they?
And you know, pastors, we try to attribute and give credit where credit's due, but there are things that, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years and there's so many things that I've heard or read over all of those decades that, you know, Dr. Rogers used to say, the first time I use something, if it's yours, I'm going to say, Hernan said, the second time I use it, I'm going to say, somebody said, the third time I use it, I'm going to say, I was thinking the other day.
And so. But it is things like that.
It's so cool when the Holy Spirit brings it to mind. You can get some, get some use out of, out of the insight.
So our audience, it's grown. We topped 30,000 subscribers today.
So of those, our people know you. Our people from back home in Alabama would know you. But if Someone has never met you before.
Take some time and just tell us who you are.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Well, I am Honduran. I live in Honduras, born and raised there.
And when I was little, my mom would take us to church. We grew up attending a Baptist church. And when I was eight, you know, I just prayed a prayer, you know, walked down the aisle.
When I was 12, I got baptized. When I was 18, my mom passed away.
And at that point I also met my wife.
And.
It was a very difficult time for me as my mom had passed. And the Lord was just using that to show me who I really was.
And after some years, I got married.
And our marriage was really bad. Really, really bad.
And as we were about to get a divorce, my wife got invited to a service.
And as she came back, she was a totally different person.
We had a lot of fights. It was really bad. Our marriage was really bad.
And as she came back and I saw her, even her countenance was different.
So now I was like the only one in the house, was fighting.
And after, I would say probably, I think it was like a year or so, she came to me one day and she said, I don't know if you've noticed what the Lord has done in my life. The Lord has saved me. And I think the Lord wants to save you. And I thought, well, how. I mean, I grew up Baptist and I started thinking about my own life and then the fruit after all those years.
And brother, I'll tell you, I was just a perfect Pharisee, you know, I was a well behaved kid, you know, always excellent grades, you know, did what my parents did, wanted me to do, and that was my life again. I was just a perfect Pharisee until that moment that my wife said, God wants to save you. So I thought, I must not be saved.
So, so, so it was like a, like a video of my life in front of me and.
And after thinking of those words, I decided to attend a service.
And that day the preacher was preaching on the verses I learned at Sunday school.
So. So it was like I was. I was amazed. Oh, so this is what this verse means. And this is what this verse means. It was an expository preaching. And the Lord just, just took that veil off of my eyes and. And I realized how wretched I was and the, how holy he is and what Christ did for me. So, so that was the, the how the Lord saved me. And from that day on, you know, the Lord's been changing our hearts. And, and after some years at the church that we attended, we Realized that it was very shallow. You know, the gospel was very, very shallow, very superficial. And we had some doctrinal differences. As I started opening my Bible and being under the influence of some men of God, some professors from a seminary in the west coast, the master seminary, I was sitting under the teaching of these men and I was translating for this man.
And it was just amazing because they would send me their material. I would do. I would do my work and then I would have to open theology books and would read here, read there, go back to Scripture. And my doctrine was changing or it was getting along with scripture.
So I realized, you know, that the church I was at was not a sound doctrine church. And after a lot of prayer and counseling, some pastors there at Grace and some others in the San Francisco Bay area, the council was the same. They said, how large is your city? Because I live in the capital city of Honduras.
So I told them around 2 million people. And how many sound doctrine churches do you know of? I told them very few. So they all said, well, why don't you start up something? You've been going through this informal training for all these years.
It took me six years to move out of that church.
And I started then because of what I heard from them, their council.
I started our church in our garage.
So it was actually, I started it with my family, you know, my wife and my three kids and even I even counted the dogs.
If you're moving, I'm preaching the gospel to you. So preach the gospel.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Every creature. Yeah, right.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: So. So that's how it all started. And it's been 14 years since it all started.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: So when during that time, I know one of the, your kind of your attempt making work has been translating and you're known as one of the great translators in Honduras.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: I would say not interpreter, but interrupter.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Sometimes I remember. Do you remember the conversation we had where you were having to interpret for somebody that was word of faith that was really extreme.
And you said, yeah, I don't always say exactly what they're.
[00:09:30] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: There were times.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: That's right. And they knew it. They knew it.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: So during that time, at what point did you have your first invitation to translate for Dr. MacArthur and there were others that you translated for.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: It was actually on 2008. Well, you know what the first brother I translated for?
He's with the Lord now.
His name, his name was Dr. George Semek.
And I remember because I didn't do translation.
So it was just that I knew English and then some of my Baptist friends called me and said, hey, would you help us out? Because there's an American pastor that's going to come to Honduras and we have no one to translate for us. I just knew English. So as he came and I.
I helped the Baptist with the translation there.
Somebody that was connected to the seminary, a seminary we have that's part of the master's seminary. It's called tmai, the Master's Academy International. So somebody connected to them asked me if I could help them out as well, because their translator was not going to be able to help them. So.
So I did. And just think about this still. My theology was. Was not aligned with Scripture.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: It's forming.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: It was forming. And then this brother comes with his Hebrew Bible and his Greek Bible and his Hebrew notes and Greek notes, and he started. He started teaching on how great salvation we have.
And he started with the doctrines of grace.
And for me, I think I was born again again that day. It was just beautiful to see.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: When you were first exposed to those doctrine, did it align with something that you already believed to be true?
Or was it like, I've never thought about this before, but it makes sense.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: What a great question, brother. It.
I would have to say, yes, a
[00:11:52] Speaker B: little bit of both.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: When I first encountered the doctrines of grace, and, you know, I was probably, you know, early. I'd been saved maybe a year, and I would hear it. I would hear things from different preachers that I would listen to.
But when it really somebody sat down specifically with the doctrine of elections, when they sat down and just sort of unpacked the doctrine of election to me, I looked at it and I thought, well, you know, it makes sense to me because I wasn't searching for the Lord.
You know, I heard the gospel through a radio program and came to faith in Christ.
But it wasn't like I got up and thought, well, you know, I'm going to die one day. I need to figure this out and start searching for him, it was blindsided.
I was minding my own business, and the preacher came on the radio, and it felt like faith erupted in my soul is what it felt like.
And I'd heard the truth of the gospel most of my life, but it was as if I'd never heard it before. And so it seemed like such a miraculous, unsought experience that when I was. When someone said, well, you know, God loved you before you loved him.
God chose you before the foundation of the world. It was like.
It seemed to be the way it happened practically. So it aligned my Experience aligned with revelation.
And so I never saw it as something I would argue against. It just made sense.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the same for me.
And again, I think I was born again again that day because it was so eye opening.
And as he grabbed, you know, Old Testament, New Testament, you know, the verses, you know, the words, there was nothing for me to argue against that. And it was just beautiful and at the same time, freeing because I realized, wow, it was never me from the beginning to the end.
So that's why we are secure in him that brings you security. Yes.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: It's all well, and it's. And it's this. I don't know how people do ministry if they think they've got to convince someone to become a Christian.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, I think that's why we see so many churches doing what they do, you know, because pragmatic. Yeah. They think, you know, so we got to. We gotta. We gotta keep them entertained, you know, because if we know what buttons to push, you know, and again, especially in our countries, you know, how emotional we are in our culture is.
So that is just like the perfect soil for all this false gospel, you know, creeping in.
And I'll tell you, we've seen the Evangelical church grow a lot, A lot, a lot. But we also have more drugs, we'll have more gangs, we have more prostitution, we have more crime.
So that tells us, or at least it tells me that we have a lot of baptized pagans in the pews. You know, people that have heard this false gospel, especially talking about the prosperity gospel, and they have put their trust in a false Jesus. You know, a false Jesus won't save anyone.
So, yes, at. As we are sitting under sound doctrine, and. And it's been opened up, you know, for you to see. There's nothing to argue, you know, so that's what happened to me. And the Lord was blessing me through that training, informal training.
And as I was translating, you know, I. The Lord just opened doors.
And the first time I had the. The opportunity to.
To.
This is a funny story. The opportunity to translate for Dr. MacArthur was when he came to Honduras.
So his translator, which I would say he's one of the best I've ever heard. His name is Luis Contreras.
He was not gonna be able to make it that time, so I was second at bat, so I was ready.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: Did you know MacArthur's reputation as a. As a sound preacher?
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, at that time I did, because I had. I'd been under the teaching of guys from. From the master seminary, were you nervous? I was really nervous. Yeah. I was really nervous. So I was introduced to him at. And I was ready to go at bat. And then Luis Contreras shows up. So I was. Oh, I. I wasn't able to translate for him that time.
But, you know, this is another side story. You know what happened that time.
Somebody stole Dr. MacArthur's notes.
It's. It's a bunch of pastors, probably a thousand pastors.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: I got to admit, I kind of see the temptation.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, really?
Somebody. I mean, his notes were stolen. Somebody. Somebody took him.
But, you know, he knew. He knew his sermon. So we were.
Some years later. Some years later, I would say probably 10 years later, we found out who that person. And it was a kid.
It was a kid. Probably that kid sold it on ebay. I don't know.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: So when you met Dr. MacArthur, getting to know him, I had the opportunity to meet him in person, not in the spotlight, a couple of times, and I was surprised at how gentle, what a gentleman he was. Did you find that to be true?
[00:17:55] Speaker A: Yes, sir.
You know, I didn't have much time to spend with him.
He was a very gracious brother.
So when I translated for him, remember, Luis Contreras was his official translator.
So I was super nervous because it was a TMAI conference, and the church that was hosting the conference, the pastor there said, no, you're going to translate for Dr. MacArthur. So I was ready to translate, and I was thinking, wow, I hope Luis doesn't show up.
But he was there. I knew he was there. So I thought, well, maybe. Maybe I won't translate for him.
And as I got up and Luis was sitting down, and Dr. McArthur saw that I was translating, said, who's this young man?
And.
And we were introduced.
I was nervous, but the way he. The way he spoke, being so gracious, he reminded me of my grandpa.
So I was perfectly fine.
And you know what was most amazing for me to realize this big person that, you know, known all over the world is so humble, but I think it's because he knew Christ, right?
And that would be the case.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: That should be the effect of the doctrine that he was proclaiming that if it was none of him and all of Christ, then there's no pride in that.
I remember it reminded me of Paul. The accusation they made against Paul was in your letters. You're so aggressive and hard, but in person, you're, you know, you're just a mouse, you know, in a similar good way. When I met MacArthur, it surprised me how humble and how down to earth he was to be such a warrior in the pulpit. And so I'd always thought if I would have a hard time in a relationship with somebody like that, because they would probably be telling me what I'm doing wrong all the time.
But that wasn't at all his attitude. In fact, when there would be real sin issues at grace, staff members would tell me they really couldn't let him talk to MacArthur because he would always just show the most grace, and he would almost do it to a fault, which was surprising that the two kind of approaches were so different, you know, it seemed like a gift was just in him or came upon him in the pulpit was unique, you know.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: Yep, yep. When. When he was doctrine, he was dogmatic.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: I would say he was bulldogic, you know, and then you would see him down and you talk to him.
It was such a humble brother, you know. And this reminds me of. I think. I think it was his favorite verse.
And it says, for what we proclaim, it's Second Corinthians, 4, 5. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ is Lord, with ourselves as your servants, for Jesus's sake.
Because that's what he. He. He wrote, you know, in every.
Every time you wanted him sign something,
[00:21:38] Speaker B: I bought, I bought, which he, you know, the money I spent, he should have signed it. But I had.
I bought four study Bibles just so I could take them and get him to sign one to each of my kids.
So they each have a signed MacArthur study Bible, and he wrote that passage in each one.
So the cool thing about. We're Talking about John MacArthur, there were no major scandals.
He had controversy.
Godly men can have controversy, but there were never any accusations that were leveled against him of impropriety or immodesty or whatever.
At the same time, one of his co laborers and working very much at Master's Seminary was Steve Lawson.
And Steve was a close friend of MacArthur.
And sometime in the last several months, couple years, some very serious allegations came out against Lawson.
He's not denying the allegations. He was in some significant immorality.
And just this week, his book came out, which is sort of a confession, it seems, and it's difficult to tell. I ordered the book.
My take on people writing books after a fall is if there's insight that I can glean to keep me from going down the same path, I want to know, show me what I may not see for myself.
And I've read probably a section of it. Let me ask you, have you worked with Lawson.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Yes. I did translate for Dr. Lawson, actually.
I think he wrote a book on the cost. The cost. I remember translating that sermon. And it was there at the West Coast.
He's been one of the most amazing preachers I've ever heard.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Another incredibly gifted preacher.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: Incredibly gifted.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: A great mind.
Similar.
I've been in his home, was able. Down. When he lived in Mobile. He had some preachers in one of the most open, gracious, you know, households that I've ever seen.
And so it was, you know, honestly, I'm 50 now. How old are you, Hernan?
[00:24:07] Speaker A: 51.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: So, you know, at our age, I don't know that it shocks us like it used to.
We know ourselves better. We know what people are capable of.
And I don't think it shocks us when we hear that somebody majorly messed up.
At least that's been my experience.
So when I heard about it, and there was a time when I thought, well, that happens in other movements, not in reform circles, but sin and the enemy is not a respecter of persons.
And so when I heard about it, of course I'm disappointed and I'm heartbroken and all those things.
It happened. And I don't know if I've talked to you about this, but it happened. The news came out while I was in my doctoral cohort, and one of our friends that we both know was helping to lead that. And he was one of the first people that Lawson called when the news broke. And so he helped him get into a counseling program and navigate the road ahead.
So we got to hear firsthand some of the details that still the world may not know yet. And so there's a weird vibe and feeling that you go through when you hear these things.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: But.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: But in reading the book, he.
It was strange. I still haven't decided if.
If he wrote it.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: Oh. Oh, wow. I was not expecting that. Yeah. So after reading the first. What chapters?
[00:25:43] Speaker B: I think it's three sections. I read the first section this morning, and either someone else wrote it or he wrote it with a lot of help from AI or he was not the writer I thought he was.
It's vague.
The wordiness of it did not remind me of him.
He's very articulate and intelligent.
So if he wanted to talk about, he knows what would help a preacher.
And the vagueness of what he said, it left a lot of things up for question.
And I'm comparing it to maybe Augustine's Confessions, when he would say he would tell you exactly what he wrestled with and what got him into the boat that he was in before Christ. And this was far from that.
It could have been. Now, it seems to be true of a person's experience who has fallen greatly. But it could have been copied and pasted into 20 other people.
And it really.
I don't know what I was looking for. It wasn't. I don't want gossip. I don't want salacious gossip. I want.
But I want to know, what exactly did he do that caused him to take that path?
And it wasn't very transparent in that regard.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: It was not like Psalm 51.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: Well, it was like Psalm 51 without.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: Without the Spirit?
[00:27:27] Speaker B: No, without the story of David, Nathan and Bathsheba. Okay, so it was like Psalm 51. I can give him that. It was.
He articulated failure and repentance. He did that well.
But we read Psalm 51 knowing what happened, and he so disregarded
[00:27:52] Speaker A: not the
[00:27:52] Speaker B: facts of the case. I would not want him to call names, but having heard more detail, I knew things that were going on with the marriage that would weaken one's resolve, if that makes sense.
And so I thought it was an opportunity that he could have really addressed all of the things that lead to a major. You know, it's like we have a slow leak for years and then suddenly a major blowout and we're on the side of the road.
The slow leak could have been addressed in a more articulate way that I think would have been gold for us, that I was sad.
And again, I'm just one section into it. He may redeem that as we go through it, but I was looking for something that just wasn't there.
[00:28:50] Speaker A: What do you think of the timing?
[00:28:54] Speaker B: I'm okay with the timing.
If he conveyed, you can get that if you need to, I'm okay with the timing.
He and the Lord and his counselors have to make that decision.
I would have probably have, in a perfect world, preferred it to be free.
I think it would have if it had been written well, if it had been transparent, I think he could have given it away and redeemed more of his future ministry, whatever that might be, to the day he dies. He may be one that speaks to fallen people or helps in situations where it's a close miss. I don't know. But I think he could have helped himself more if he had given it away, not made it a for profit thing and, you know, been more forthright.
[00:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I agree.
And. And you know what? When I found out about what happened, it's just that feeling, you know, that scary feeling. And I think it was Edwards that said, you know, whenever you see seen in somebody else, just remember it's a mirror. You could be there. Right. You know, so for me was, wow. And it's me. He's been one of our heroes. Right? I mean, he's one of my heroes.
And then just. Just going over, you know, his life, it just. It just.
It's a good reminder for me. It's what Paul wrote to Timothy, Take heed of yourself.
And then your doctrine course. Right.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: Do you look at him and he's just the latest one. You know, we could fill a room up with people who've been in that boat.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: But I look at him, brother, and I have translated for many more that have fallen
[00:30:58] Speaker B: when you think about them.
I've never been one to be very angry about it.
I hurt.
Personally, I'm disappointed slightly.
The older I get, the less disappointed or shocked I am.
But I'm never furious. It surprised me that the reformed community, especially on social media, have been pretty furious about his fall.
That's just never been. My immediate instinct is to be angry with a person and maybe some of that spiritual giftedness in the way that I'm wired, but my heart has been more.
I just want to go and give him a hug and say, man, let's sit down and just survive for right now until you figure out what you're dealing with.
And then I guess the only time when I really do get angry is when I think about any deception that was involved in it with the. The other person.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: You know, because I don't know that whole story.
But how did you. How do you deal with that?
[00:32:08] Speaker A: It's the same for me.
It was just the way the. The way I processes that. I process that was just thinking that could be me anytime, that could be me anytime.
And I can't remember who it was that said.
Probably had to be one of the Puritans, can't remember.
But he said, know what associates Satan has in your heart.
So I'm thinking, wow, I shouldn't be trusting myself. You know, I need to know what associates Satan has in my heart.
And then I think of the brothers and sisters. You know, we have this elderly couple that we love in our church.
His name is Santano, and her name is Blanquita. They're a couple. So I think about them, and then I think about just this scenario of coming before them and telling them, you know, I failed the Lord.
You know, I failed you.
And then I think about my wife and my children.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: It's funny, you say that I've got. There are a number of people, and it would probably surprise anybody who knew me who those people are that I would be most heartbroken to tell.
But I had a gentleman who supported my ministry when I was just beginning, and he was a senior adult pastor, faithful minister of a small church.
And you know, if that happened and you go through the Rolodex of who you would have to tell or let know he was always the one that I thought it would absolutely just crush him because he would give, you know, for him, he would give $50 when he didn't have $50 to give.
And to think that I took that and misused it, you know, it would really, really hurt. It would hurt me, though, I think more so than it would hurt him to tell him that.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: So that's what I, that's how I processed all of Lawson's and many other.
And you know what? It's great preachers.
They have been great preachers.
The sermons I've translated, they have been great. Amazing sermon, so eloquent, a great delivery. And, and then I, a couple of months later, then I, I found out about. Oh, so it does hurt.
I do grieve, but at the same time, it's just scary. It's a scary thought. I, I, I don't. Lord, please take my life from me before doing that. I don't want to continue my life. You know, if I had, I have to go through this. No, no, no. Make my family go through this or the church, brother. I even think about you guys. I mean, how much you guys love me. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I just can't. I don't know.
That would be too much for me. That'd be too much for me.
[00:35:22] Speaker B: Well, I remember, I remember early on in our marriage, Julie and I talking, and something, somebody news broke that somebody had lost their marriage, that they lost their ministry, lost everything.
And I remember us talking back then and sort of agreeing together. It would be better if he would just take us home before we go down that road.
And it's not that we're not capable of it, but it would be better and we would prefer it that he would have that mercy on us. He doesn't, he doesn't always do that. He does let us fall.
Why do you think that is?
[00:35:59] Speaker A: Well, and you see scripture, you know, all these men, Peter, David, you see Abraham, you see Moses, you see David, you see Solomon.
And I think it's just the Lord trying to teach us something. You know, the Bible has the same message, you know, From Genesis, revelation.
It's just told, you know, in different ways, but it's the same message. So I think it's just a good reminder of who we are again. So we don't trust in ourselves, you know, so our trust would be in Christ and we would take heed of ourselves, just as Paul told Timothy, because. And we're going to go back to what you said about Dr. MacArthur.
We have this sad examples of brothers that have fallen, but we. We have so great examples of brothers that have remained faithful. And that's one of my. My prayer requests, when somebody asks, hey, how can I be prayer for you? Pray that I would remain faithful to the Lord and my wife, to my family.
Suici. Dr. MacArthur. How many years of ministry? Over 50. 50 years of ministry. And we see God's faithfulness to him, you know, now his faithfulness, you know, so he's a. He's a great model. So. And sometimes we. We know, we. We focus more on the bad examples than the good examples that we have, the great brothers that we've seen remaining faithful in their ministries.
[00:37:37] Speaker B: It's possible.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: Yes, it is. It is, brother. And that's. That should be our prayer.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Amen.
Okay.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: The. The.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: The church. When MacArthur passed away, he was still preaching pretty close up to when he passed away. How, how far was it? Do you remember?
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Weeks.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:37:59] Speaker A: The congregation was very gracious because he was sick.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: He was very sick.
[00:38:03] Speaker A: He was very sick. Yeah. Very, very weak.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: His mind remained sharp.
[00:38:08] Speaker A: Yes. Which is. Which? God's grace. You know, it's God's grace.
And I can't remember when was his last sermon, but you see, he was very frail, you know, he was very weak.
[00:38:24] Speaker B: The big question in those circles in particular has been who would follow him? And a young man has been tapped with that.
I don't know. Nathan Vicentes, Buzenitz, Busnitz.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: I did not know him. Was he on staff there?
[00:38:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's a sharp. He's a sharp mind. He's a great brother, a fantastic preacher.
[00:38:46] Speaker B: You feel like the church is in good hands? Yeah.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: Yes, yes. I mean, and I think as pastors, we should be working on our replacement.
That's what leaders do.
[00:39:08] Speaker B: It's coming. Transition coming.
[00:39:10] Speaker A: It is coming, brother. It is coming. So I think MacArthur did a great job. He did a great job at forming all these leaders that were around him, all these elders that he had around, pastors that were over him. So when you, when you, when you would visit Grace, I mean, he had over 40 elders, you know, and they were teaching.
So how. How could you oversee such a big congregation? Well, it's through all these elders, you know, and. And even though people do miss Dr. MacArthur, and I would. I would assume. I mean, we've. I've at least. I've never been through that. That pain of. Of losing.
Losing a pastor.
So I don't know how that looks like, but I would. I would assume that people have this feeling of we've lost our. Our. Our best friend, we've lost our pastor, we've lost our shepherd.
But he did such a great job, you know, preparing all these men.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Do you remember when. When Piper stepped down. So he. He stepped down from the pulpit or from the pastorate and continued preaching. But the young man who followed him, it's my understanding he's really gone south.
Do you know that? Do you know the story there?
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I don't know the details, but yeah. Yeah. And again, wasn't he removed from the pulpit? I think it was for doctrine. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's one of the things that you cannot control.
So Jesus had 12, and one of them was.
[00:40:57] Speaker B: And the plan worked. You know, they did the right thing to remove him.
It's just, I guess, for me, naive to say that that wouldn't happen under a Piper or MacArthur. No one could happen to.
To any church.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: Yeah. That's why I told you Jesus had 12, right? 12. And out of those 12, you know, one was, you know, Judas, you know, so. So.
And there was. And I'll tell you, there was a brother that was mentoring.
I was training him.
I thought he was the next elder in our church.
So for some years, you know, he was under my wings.
And I would. Every time we come to the States, I would bring back good resources for him to have, and I would invite him to come with me to different places, conferences.
He was a brother that was so good at speaking in public, I gave him opportunity to preach for many Sundays. And he was living a double life.
The Lord just brought that up just before he was ordained, just before he was ordained. So it was so heartbreaking. So heartbreaking because he was one of my best friends, and it was really heartbreaking that he was living a double life. I mean, he was not even saved.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: We've been through it. We had a.
I don't remember if you knew Brandon or not. That was our worship leader. And I can tell the story now because it's come full circle, but was a worship leader who was doing some horrible things, lost his ministry Lost his family.
And it happened.
I noticed he changed.
I noticed his sense of humor change. I noticed some things like that, but I had no idea to the degree that was taking place. And so as it came out,
[00:43:09] Speaker A: there
[00:43:09] Speaker B: was just a lot of things to process, a lot of things to think through.
And then I had to determine with him, it was, you know, brandon, you can't be a pastor anymore. That's out of the question.
You need to find other employment.
You probably won't be a husband. Your wife is probably going to leave you.
He had fallen in love with a prostitute.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: Long story short. But I said, but if you will let me, you'll still be a friend, and I'll be there for you. And I said, if you go to prison, which you could have, I said, I'll come visit you in prison.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: Now.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: He wouldn't receive that for a long time because it was all our fault.
His horrible choices were the church's fault.
But after about a year and a half, he got to the place to where if somebody's genuinely saved, they're going to come back to the flock.
And so he got to that point where he expressed true repentance. It was really a cool.
One of the coolest redemption stories I've seen.
All this happened very publicly. He was on stage every Sunday and singing the stars down. One of the most gifted worship leaders I'd ever seen.
He did lose his job. He lost his family.
He went through a long, dark tunnel. Came out, went through counseling, got things kind of back in order, and I invited him at the right time. When enough people validated that he had sincerely, even his ex wife said, he's truly repentant now. She had moved on, but she validated that he was sincere. We brought him back to the church, brought him on stage, and I interviewed him just like this, because those people were still hurting.
So we talked through everything that happened, how he ended up in the state he was in.
And once the church voiced their forgiveness to him, we had him sing a song about grace.
And, man, you talk about a moving moment of a church embracing somebody and saying, we're not going to put you back on staff.
That was not good for you or us.
But we forgive you and him to receive that. It was a healthy thing. I've never seen anything like it.
[00:45:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just like Paul in Second Corinthians, right?
[00:45:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
Right.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: Receive that man. Forget that man.
Forgive them.
So, yeah, the thing is, that's what we see.
Very often, you know, men that because they're not knowing what associates Satan has in their hearts, you know, they are falling into that trap and we don't need to blame it on Satan. It's our own flesh and it's our own flesh.
So we need to know ourselves even better. And even as pastors, the impact we have, and this is the tendency, people think that when we sin it's only going to affect or harm ourselves, but we are affecting, harming everyone that's around us. We have a family, we have a congregation and the name of Christ. And we think, we tend to think nobody's gonna know, just like David, you know, but when Nathan came, he said, because of your sin, you know, even the, even the, the other nations, the pagan nations, you know, are just blaspheming the Lord, you know, and we think, wow, even the unbelievers now, because you check on the social media and everybody stuck, all of these reformed people, these reformed people, you know, this reform. So it speaks about Christ, you know, and that's what should hurt us even more.
And after a fall like David's, you don't see David ending up as joyful.
It was a different David sitting on the throne, you know, at the end of his life.
And I don't want that, brother. I want to remain faithful.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: Do you think there's a lesson for the church at large to say maybe beware of the celebrity minister, not blaming the minister. Beware of making a celebrity out of someone who's telling you every week that he's a sinner?
I think just about every week I'll tell the church kind of what we've said here. But for the grace of God, there go us.
We're capable of such things.
We have safeguards not because we're spiritual, but because we're unspiritual, you know, so we say those things over and over again.
But you know, our church is not by American standards, it's not a huge church for me, it's a big church.
And our people in this small community, they can kind of idolize a minister, especially of a large congregation.
Do you think there's a message there for all of us to be careful what we do with men like Lawson or MacArthur or whoever, to make sure that we're always educating ourselves on what's true about them, even though it may not seem like it, because we see a curated Image, we see 45 minutes on stage in a three piece suit after thinking through every word they're going to say.
Their wife knows a different version, their kids know a different version, and that's okay.
It's not saying that anybody could be completely vulnerable and transparent on stage, but I do think we owe it to the Lord. We owe it to those men to not put them on such a high pedestal that we end up demonizing them when they fall. Does that make sense?
[00:49:49] Speaker A: Yes.
It's a two way street.
We care for the sheep, but we see now the responsibility of the sheep to care for the pasture.
And caring for the pastor, not only in financial ways, but caring for his soul.
You know, we live in a.
In a, in a bowl right in this fishbowl. You know, everybody knows where Pastor Zach is, where his children are, you know, and what they do. And everybody's, you know, everybody's watching us. Everybody's watching us. So there's a lot of pressure. There is a lot of pressure.
And my wife doesn't need that pressure. My kids, they don't need that pressure.
[00:50:46] Speaker B: You're used to it.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm used to that.
But sometimes it takes a toll on them.
And of course, as a congregation, which my congregation is very loving. I know your congregation, they're so loving as well.
And they do care for me. I get.
Sometimes ministry can be very lonely.
There are things that we go through that we see in people.
I have sleepless nights just because I know what my congregation is going through. This family is going through, this man is going through. I know.
But at the same time, that ministry can be lonely. It is so refreshing when you have brothers that would be calling you or texting you like Barnabas. Right?
They will be encouraging you. I have men like that in my life.
And you have even texted me some point, you know, saying, hey, brother, I'm praying for you. I know, I've texted you, hey, bro, I'm praying for you. And for me, it's so encouraging to, to know that I have this man, which there are not many, but it can be few. But I know they're praying for me, like, like Julie speaking to, to Gabby, you know, my wife.
And they, you know, they, they speak a lot. You know, they text each other. And I'm so encouraged because I know Gabby has some people in her life, you know, and then they talk about even my health and then you finding out about my health.
[00:52:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I was so frustrated because she knew stuff I didn't know.
[00:52:27] Speaker A: So. So it's. For me, it's encouraging, brother, to have people. And this because you were talking about how the congregation come alongside you and help you. Well, that way, you know, just, just as we shepherd them, they can they can also shepherd us?
[00:52:44] Speaker B: I think. I think you know my heart, and I think you know me well enough to know I'm not trying to blow smoke or flatter or anything like this, but to me, to some people, you are in those ranks with a MacArthur, with Piper. I have great honor for you, and I know your people do.
I don't know Honduras well enough to know if they realize how uncommon a pastor like yourself with the insights and the mind that you have and the ability to communicate, but I would presume, if they do know how rare that is, that there would be a temptation to maybe put you on a pedestal.
I think one thing that you've done far better than I have is you've invited people close to you. There's always people in your home. There's always people around you so they can kind of see what's real and what's normal, not just the curated social media version, you know, And I think that's healthy that they get to see you with your wife, they get to see you with your kids, because they're not gonna. You know, the wife and kids know who you are, and they're not gonna pretend. And so I want to applaud and I want to emulate the fact that you've been so accessible to your people, if anything, almost to a fault to say, come close to me. The shepherd needs to smell like the sheep, you know, And I think that helps to keep someone.
That perspective of a person being saintly or holier than everybody else. I think that there's a sense in which. There's a very healthy thing that comes from that, that I've noticed that men who fall, that you don't always see that.
[00:54:40] Speaker A: Well, first.
Well, thanks, brother, for those words.
Honestly, I honor you. You are one of my. And Gavi can tell you, and everybody can tell you, you're one of my favorite preachers.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: Well, you got to say that now. Yes, I've just said it.
But all that aside, all that aside,
[00:55:02] Speaker A: I do believe it's one of my safeguards.
Having all these people come and they are watching you, they're watching me. How I treat my wife and how I treat my children, how I live my life, even. Even playing, you know, board games with them, you know, or. Or. Or spending some time, you know, just. Just hanging around with. With the youth, especially.
We go and play soccer every now and then. And it's. It's been funny because some. Some of the. Some of these youth, you know, they were so. They have so, so, so much strength and they would come to you and shoulder you, and then I would fall down, you know, like.
But they watch how you respond to that.
So I like it. I like it because I know, okay, so I have eyes watching.
And I have eyes watching. And before the Lord, they are following a model, and I don't want to be a stumbling block for them.
So it's. For me, it's been a safeguard, knowing that for them, it's not a pastor, somebody that's going to be up here and we're down here, and no, we all. We're equal, and we both need the
[00:56:28] Speaker B: gospel and it's attainable. They can see someone who's grown in their faith and their doctrine, who has a solid family, and they can look at it and go, oh, wait, I can do that, because that's the guy I play soccer with, you know? So it just kind of fleshes it out a little better, it seems to me. Well, brother, let's finish well.
[00:56:45] Speaker A: Yes, sir. Let's finish well, knowing that it's just because of Christ.
Remember, we started with the doctrines of grace, and we start with total depravity, but we end up with the perseverance of the saints, or I would say the preservation of the saints, because it's God that preserves us.
[00:57:10] Speaker B: He who began the work.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: Yes, sir. And he makes us persevere to the end. That's why we will.
We will finish well. And. And you know what? This is. What? This is what? So I can pick up my. My glasses, right? Yeah.
[00:57:25] Speaker B: Is it? Okay, go for it. If you can reach them.
[00:57:30] Speaker A: This is.
This is what? What?
Jude. This is how Jude ends. And I just love it because it says in verse 1, Judas, servant of Jesus Christ, the brother of James, those who are called beloved and kept.
And he ends up his letter saying, now to him who is able to keep you kept from the beginning to the end, keep you from stumbling now, that's here on earth, right?
But he's able also to present you blameless now, that's there in heaven.
In heaven, it says to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, to him be glory, majesty, dominion and authority before all time and now and forever.
Amen.
[00:58:35] Speaker B: Man.
Great place to land an episode as well as a life. Brother, thank you for joining me on code Red.
[00:58:41] Speaker A: Thank you. Love you, brother.
[00:58:42] Speaker B: Love you.
