Standing for Truth in Enemy Territory with Jacob Van Sickle

[00:00:09] Speaker A: They say that Providence, Rhode island is where church plants go to die. Over the last like 15 years, there have been over 10 to 15 church plants that have closed in the city. Times magazine called it the godless city. Barna ranks it as one of the most secular cities or one of the most post Christian cities. [00:00:26] Speaker B: When it was founded in the 1600s, the land that became Providence, Rhode island was a mecca for people who wanted religious freedom and wanted to practice their faith without interference from the government authorities. Today it is a very secular, pluralistic society that is one of the least Christian places in our nation. Today's guest on Code Red, Jacob Van Sickle is trying to change that. He's leading a movement to bring Providence, Rhode island back to its roots. He's preaching the gospel, planting a church, starting a school. And you will want to hear his story today. Welcome to Code Red. Jacob Van Sickle, welcome to the Code Red studio. [00:01:24] Speaker A: I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me. [00:01:25] Speaker B: Well, remind me again, you've got some connections here in North Florida prior to us meeting and tell me about kind of who do you know here that brought you on our radar? I remember Tarkenton or somebody put out a call and said, I've got a friend who's coming to the area. And I was like, that sounds like a great fit for our podcast. But how did you connect with those guys? [00:01:50] Speaker A: So, so I'm in Rhode island and our CPC is the SIN Network or nam, language of the person that helps be a catalyst in a region for church planting and the Rhode island cpc. His name is Darren Sullivan. He became a Christian in Jacksonville. [00:02:07] Speaker B: How about you? I know that name. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So he works under Bob with First coast churches. So he was in Rhode island at the time. So he became a Christian here, but he's from Rhode island so went there to serve there. He was one of the first people I talk to when considering planting a church in Providence, Rhode Island. So he had this relational connection with David and others and they did a vision trip and brought some pastors up to Providence and then Bob with First coast churches. I affectionately told them he stole Darren about a year ago and brought him down here. They're doing an amazing job in what they're doing. But he's now serving with First Coast. So that's that relational connection. [00:02:53] Speaker B: That's how Cross pollen with Rhode Island. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So I remember at one of our gatherings, it came up what you were doing and wanting to have a more ongoing connection with our churches and your plant up there planting In Rhode island, that would probably not be the first place that would come on someone's mind if they're, you know, you kind of look at church planting as a, an adventure and exciting kind of thing to do. But I guess you always. First place you go is kind of the fastest growing cities, you know, and you want to go where it would be easy. [00:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:28] Speaker B: You didn't choose where it's easy. [00:03:30] Speaker A: No. [00:03:30] Speaker B: What led you that way? [00:03:31] Speaker A: No. In fact, they say that Providence, Rhode island is where church plants go to die. So over the last like 15 years, there have been over 10 to like 10 to 15 church plants that have closed in the city. So it's like, it's. But the reason why people go there is because. So it's a strategic location and there's a huge need. [00:03:51] Speaker B: Tell me why it's strategic. [00:03:53] Speaker A: So it's strategic in the sense of it's a mid sized city. So it's the capital of Rhode Island, 175,000. The Greater Providence area is about a million people, which includes the entire state of Rhode Island. The entire state would fit into the city of Jacksonville. So it's Rhode Island. But the need is there in the fact that it's one of the most secular cities in the United States. Times magazine called it the godless city. So Barna ranks it as one of the most secular cities or one of the most post Christian cities. Bible Gateway did one of the least Bible minded cities. And just each study, it's always at the bottom or the top, depending on what it's showing. When it comes to lostness, at the. [00:04:38] Speaker B: Same time, it's a university mecca. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:42] Speaker B: What are some of the schools there? [00:04:44] Speaker A: There are 58,000 college students within Providence proper. So that includes. Brown University is an Ivy League school. Johnson Wales University is one of the most prestigious culinary arts schools in the nation. Rhode Island College is a Division 3 public school. Let's see the community college of Rhode Island, Providence College, the Friars. If you watch college basketball, that's kind of what they're known for in hockey and Rhode island school design, which is one of the most prestigious art schools in the nation. So you have this ecosystem of universities. So a lot of college students go there to study, which makes a huge opportunity for mission. But I consider Providence a decisive point. I got that term from a guy by the name of Jim Wilson, wrote a book on evangelism and he before ministry he was trained in the military. And decisive point is a military term and what it means is it's strategic but feasible. So I grew up in a small town, like 2500 people, pretty small town. And that would be feasible. You could move in and, you know, have a sizable impact right away, but it's not as strategic. I love it. You know, I love the people there, but it's not a very strategic place. But New York City or Manhattan is obviously strategic, but it's hard to have a sizable impact on such a big city. And to use a war analogy, like Munich, taking Munich in World War II would have been huge, but you can't start there. So the beaches to Normandy would be a strategic point. So I view like Providence as a strategic point because it has the universities, but it's mid size. As in you can have a tangible impact as a church or as a group of gospel preaching churches on a place like that. [00:06:47] Speaker B: So let's go back to that town of 2500. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:51] Speaker B: How were you raised? Were you? [00:06:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:54] Speaker B: When did Christ come on your radar? How did you come to know the Lord? [00:06:58] Speaker A: So I grew up in a Christian family, which I'm very thankful for, and my parents. Where did you grow up? So I was born in Kansas and then in sixth grade or so we moved up to Iowa. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Okay, so. [00:07:10] Speaker A: And you will not offend me if in the conversation you refer to Iowa as Ohio or Idaho because they're basically the same, all those states kind of people anymore. It's just basically the same. So grew up there and I, like, knew the gospel. I had a very sensitive conscience, which thankful for now that I'm older. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Did you have a lot of siblings? [00:07:34] Speaker A: I'm the oldest of eight. [00:07:36] Speaker B: So you have siblings? [00:07:37] Speaker A: We were Mormon. Yeah, Not Mormon, not Catholic. My parents like kids, so yeah. Oldest fate. And I have six. I have six now. [00:07:45] Speaker B: So it runs in the genes, I guess. [00:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And middle school, high school, early college really just wandered away and was rebellious. And when I was a sophomore in college at a school in southeast Kansas, I went there for track and field. For that time I was sitting in this chapel. It wasn't a Christian school, but it had for some reason had a chapel on campus. And I'm like, why is my life so messed up? Like, basically just praying to God. And as I was praying, I thought, what if I'm just praying to myself, like, what if no one's actually listening to me? And one of the lowest moments still to this day, one of the lowest moments of my life, if not the lowest. And this is not. As a pastor, you know, you have to qualify some things of like this is not looking into. This is not the way to study your Bible, you know, this is. But I felt like I should just open up Bible roulette and see what it says. And I turn to Isaiah 43, put down my. Not on purpose. Just opened up randomly, put my finger down and my fingers resting on a verse that says, listen to me, O Jacob, in my name, Israel, whom I have called. I am He, I am the first, and I am the last. My hands stretch forth the heavens. And I was there of like, oh. [00:09:09] Speaker B: You'Re not talking to yourself. [00:09:10] Speaker A: That's me. You know, And a little bit later on in that section, it says, if you would have only obeyed my commands, your peace would be like the river. And that was my life. I wasn't obeying his commands, and I had no peace. These men came in. We were doing a Bible study that night, which they were always trying to get me more involved and actually live out the Christian life. But I just did it to appease my sensitive conscience so I didn't have to think about it for a week. And they came in, we had the Bible study. And afterwards the leader was like, you know, my favorite passage in the Bible is Isaiah 43. [00:09:44] Speaker B: I'm just like, I've never heard anybody claim that verse is their favorite. [00:09:49] Speaker A: So I ended up transferring schools. You'd think that that would happen. And then everything was better. No, I was still pretty rebellious, you know, But I ended up transferring schools. And my ra. My resident assistant was a Christian. And the first night I'm there, he asked me to go watch football with some guys. And I'm like, I'm for that. And I remember before I even showed up on campus, it wasn't this Bible, but I was holding my Bible. I'm like, should I even pack it? And still just in that condition. So we show up and we're watching football, and I'm talking to guys, and I'm seeing the way, you know, there's no alcohol around. I'm seeing the way they're interacting with the women and with respect. And I'm just. It all of a sudden dawns on me, like, all these are Christian guys. These are Christian guys. And after the football game, we go and play basketball at the church, which is the first time the gym had opened up at the church. And I roll my ankle, which is not normal. That's very normal for me. Excuse me. It's not abnormal. And I go up to get some ice right next to the pastor's office. He's there preparing a sermon for the next morning. And I ask him what he's preaching on and he said it's about Jacob's exile and when he returns and meets Esau. And again, it was just one of those moments. I'm walking out to my car after all that happened and it just, it dawns on me. I have been so rebellious and God has been so faithful. And I don't know if I became a Christian in that moment, but it's the gospel moved down just many different layers into my, my heart, my life. And through that, in the college ministry that was connected to that local church, I changed tremendously. Like my poor parents, I probably came home and it was a different type of difficult. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Did I worry about you? [00:11:50] Speaker A: I don't know. Probably. [00:11:53] Speaker B: The reason I ask, when I came to Jesus, it was all in. I mean, you know, I've always been kind of an extremist in what I do. [00:12:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good, you know, but. [00:12:02] Speaker B: But it, you know, I would read a passage about, you know, and when you fast, don't fast this way. So I'm like, I'm going to fast. And they thought, you know, has he joined a cult? Like, what? Because they were Christian? But they, yes. That wasn't taken as literally as I would take it. But. And so yeah, they got. There was a season that they got a little worried about me. But I think a lot of guys go through that, that same question in that same stage of is anybody really there? Am I talking to myself? Are these impressions things that my mind is, you know, cooking up? And it's so awesome to just see when God responds and you're right, you know, that's not the way to study the Bible. But I mean, so many people have done that and seems like the Lord has used it, you know, it's like. [00:12:51] Speaker A: It'S living and active. [00:12:52] Speaker B: It is. I know you'll go figure, but it's like he's like, you know, I'm going to meet you where you're at and work with what I can. And it's really sweet to hear those kind of stories where you know, such a clear message to you from there. What kind of church was it? I'm just curious, was it. [00:13:11] Speaker A: So it was a non denominational conservative, depending on how you use that word, Highly evangelistic church. And I'm just so thankful. A lot of young people that were reading their Bible and obeying it, I remember just so many critical conversations. I was in an accountability group and they're sharing about the people they're reaching out to in their classes. And I remember asking them like, Are you guys telling me that you're doing all this just so people would know Jesus? And they looked at me the way Cal stares in a new gate, just like. I was like, what? Like, yeah, duh. Like that's what we're about. [00:13:50] Speaker B: That's what we do. [00:13:51] Speaker A: And I'm like, well, yeah, that makes sense, I guess, because I had that background. But for me, a lot of the missionaries were the people that went to Africa and stuff. So I started to live that way. And my junior year, I was an RA and I was walking down the hall and there's this young woman and freshman. I didn't call her a young woman then because I was young back then. And letter to the Lord in that hallway in Stahliker Hall. And I remember thinking, I don't know what I'm going to do with my life, but I want to be involved in that for the rest of my life. I didn't want to go into ministry at that time, not at all. But I'm like, I want to be involved in that. People coming to know Jesus. [00:14:36] Speaker B: I think churches and college, they're very difficult to lead. From everything I've heard, it's one of the hardest places to pastor is in a university town. They chose back in the day when most of these universities began. They chose the towns they chose for a reason. And it wasn't necessarily because it was the. The middle of the booming culture. A lot of times it was cheap land, access to railroads, whatever it might be. But you know, it was a not for profit institution and they chose those areas for a reason. So planting there, it's off the beaten, you know, path sometimes. And planting in those communities, they tend to be more liberal. So just taking absolute truths to those communities can be challenging. But the conversations, like you've talked about, the first opportunity to share your faith with somebody, that that season is so pivotal. I came to Christ in college, was called into ministry, met my wife, and I also had that group of men in a church that once I tasted redefined. Okay, this is church. It's not what I remember as a child, which was very different. This is what a real church is like. They took the Bible seriously and it just set a standard for me that if anybody has not experienced that as a Christian, this is going to sound. They're going to look for something in their life that's close to it, maybe, but we have people all the time. But once they taste it, people teaching the Bible, trying to walk in truth, when they relocate, the first question they ask is, Are there any churches like this there? And sadly, a lot of times there are not. And we tell them a lot of times if you go to a city and you can't find a mega church or a large congregation, established church, sometimes look in those church plants and it won't be the same experience. You won't have the same childcare or activities, but you'll people that approach the scripture the same way a lot of times. So we encourage them to, you know, kind of broaden their options, dig around. And a lot of times you look in these networks and see what the various, you know, like the sin network, what are they doing there, Others, other groups that you trust or movements you trust and see if they're doing something there and just go, those pastors can go to have coffee with you or the guy at the biggest church in town. You may never have coffee with us. You know, so we found that to be helpful. But I just think in college that's such a pivotal season in life. And I know you've kind of led an effort to reach college students and equip churches to do that as well. Is that right? [00:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So I help lead an organization called Campus Fellowship. And the mission of Campus Fellowship is to help local churches reach their local universities. And a lot of it is trying to convince people to do something that they know already is going to be hard. So all those barriers for reaching universities, there are constant turnover. College students come in and they're immature, they're broke, they're broke. [00:17:53] Speaker B: They're not going to build a budget. [00:17:55] Speaker A: They're taking money out of the. It's being passed and they're taking down. Not really, but it's really, it feels like that. So you're trying to convince people to do something that you know is going to come at a high cost to their church in one way, but it's like, it's so strategic. Like, that is a pivotal moment. And every time a pastor is like looking at, you know, guy with married, three kids, on the brink of divorce, and they're counseling like, man, if you just would have made different decisions 10 years ago. [00:18:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:32] Speaker A: And it's like with college, we said. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Sunday, I was in a, a town in Alabama that had a large NASA installation. So everybody was a rocket scientist. 70% of the men in the church were engineers. But there was a proverb. They had an inch on the, on the platform, on the launch pad. An inch on the launch pad is a mile from the moon. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:53] Speaker B: So in that stage of life, if you can get it right, as a college student and learn what's important, build your life around what's important. It'll carry you. You're gonna have hard times, but it'll carry you through them. [00:19:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:08] Speaker B: It's that idea of train up the child in the way he should go. That applies spiritually as well. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:14] Speaker B: You know, so how do you do that? How do you. [00:19:17] Speaker A: How do you. Well, that's my passion, is that very principle. I've shared something similar to many college students over, like, hey, you're making decisions or leaders to try to convince them to invest. So in that same university as Drake University and Des Moines, Iowa, I would say it puts the liberal into liberal arts. So probably one of the most liberal spots in Iowa is that university. And for 10 years, I was the college pastor there. And then through that effort, we're like, we love what we're doing. We think there's some things that we have to offer. And we started to offer it to other churches, so started to partner with other churches to create campus fellowships on their church and also on the university. And then our church plant was the first official, like, campus fellowship church plant. But in a very. [00:20:08] Speaker B: This is when you were leading by this side. [00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's been going for two and a half years, soon to be three. And it was the first official, but it was also the first one in the Northeast. So the Northeast has more universities and college students in any region per capita, but it's also the least reached. [00:20:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:31] Speaker A: It's like the whole region is kind of like the university. So we. We wanted to put ourselves in a place to be on the front lines when it comes to both reaching the university and reaching a very secular culture. [00:20:44] Speaker B: I'm going to get a little bit ahead of the story. I want to go back and hear about your. How you discerned a call to ministry. Yes, but. But before I forget it. So if you're strategically trying to reach a college campus, there's so many different approaches to that. You know, I think probably Southern Baptists kind of follow a Catholic model of going in and buying property, starting a Baptist campus ministry, you know, putting up, putting a minister there, you know, before we've really connected with anybody. And it has worked. I mean, I don't know how well it's worked, but it seems to have worked. We've got ministries and colleges all over the United States. And then you'll see. And I'm sure you probably at a liberal school. I wonder if you did. We saw it in north Alabama. Guys who would come through Like John the Baptist. And they would get on the soapbox, tell everybody they're going to hell. You would have a crowd of hundreds of kids. Did you see that at all in that, in that setting? How does that work from the inside? Is that, does God use that? Is it hurting more than it's helping? What's been your experience with it? [00:21:50] Speaker A: Well, when it comes to the people that Open Air preach, I'd say they reach a group of students that oftentimes go unreached as an argumentative atheists. Oftentimes. [00:22:02] Speaker B: So this may be the person who's taking an apologetic approach. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah, we're assuming in this, what I'm talking about, assume he's a legit Christian, you know, or she's a legit Christian. And this is not a cultist, but this is someone that's going in, preaching the true gospel, but doing it in a more aggressive way, challenging thought processes. So how did that work? [00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah, so I think it can be an effective method when done right. In fact, I know a guy that he was a professor, atheist professor, and that's how he became a Christian. Is someone open air preaching and than arguing with him for days and days and days. But with the universities that I've cut my teeth on, most of them have been private. So any form of that on campus, you're going to get kicked out in. [00:22:53] Speaker B: A freedom of speech. [00:22:55] Speaker A: So it's like they'll say technically they'll allow it, but they don't. You know, it's like they'll. You'll be out. [00:23:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:01] Speaker A: And you have to be way more strategic or political would probably be a better term with private institutions. And you have to play the politics a little bit. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Is it relational? More. [00:23:12] Speaker A: More relational, but with key people. So you want to fly under the radar with some people and with key people on campus you want to have a close relationship. [00:23:21] Speaker B: Who would that be with? [00:23:22] Speaker A: So when I was, when I was a college pastor at Drake, there's a guy that was overseeing, he oversaw all the student organizations and he was very opposed to me in our worldview as far as he was a gay man. Very into the pride community there on Drake's campus. But we had a mutual respect for each other, as in we were cordial with one another. And even one time we had developed a relationship over time where a new ministry was going to be on campus. Salt company, if you've heard of Salt Company, great college ministry. Yeah, they're doing amazing things. So they're going to be on campus. And he came to me and he's like, what do you think of this? You know, it's like, are they legit? I think they're doing great things. And he was more like, feeling protected of what you were doing. Even though we didn't align on everything, we knew it. He was like, well, this is your terror. And I'm like, no, it's like, we want more people like that. And it opened the door for them to be on campus, like, just those relationships. So you have to know. And sometimes that's not available. Sometimes people disagree with you, and they're gonna oppose you in everything you do. And there are those people on campus, too, you know. [00:24:37] Speaker B: Well, I think it's. It's important, you know, in a community like this. I told you a little bit about it earlier. It's a very conservative area, and at the same time, it has a very vocal left minority. But when we're able to. If. If I can have a conversation like you and I are having with someone from that perspective and just develop a cordial relationship where it's like, man, I don't wake up in the morning trying to figure out how to ruin your life. And I even believe that you have the freedom in this country to hold the opinion that you hold. We've got barriers and limits. We don't want you to mess with kids. We don't want you to shove it down our throat. But at the same time, I support your right to speak what you believe. When we've done that and developed enough of a relationship that it's sincere and they trust me, we get along great. Not only that, they'll come to our defense. If someone from that perspective, I mean, just the far left is having an issue with something that we're doing, they will defend our right to do something that they disagree with. And that's really what our. How it should be in our country. And if anywhere in your community now in Providence, it's highly pluralistic, and you probably learned a lot about just reaching that community through the college campus. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd say, like, two ingredients. If someone's going to go in a progressive environment, either a progressive university or progressive city in Providence, there's both. You have to have two things. You have to really love those types of people, like, really want them to know Jesus and feel comfortable interacting with them. And the second thing is you have to not care what they think. So it's like. It's like those two things. It's like Jesus view them and have compassion on them because you realize they're sheep. Without a shepherd, and at the same time, not trying, I'm not trying to win their approval. Like, this is what God says. [00:26:44] Speaker B: I don't know. I want to hear more about that. I want to hear how do you hold your line of convictions, how do you speak them freely? And at the same time, try to build some sort of relationship with people who differ vastly from what you would believe, because you're in your core. From everything we've discussed, you're a conservative evangelical. You believe every word of the scriptures, and that's going to put you at odds with a lot of cultures. So do you just kind of not lead with that or like, when you're building the relationship, at what point did those things come up? The way that I've approached this community, I found that if I lead with, hey, I'm a pastor, First Baptist Church, that's not always helpful because there's a lot of preconceived ideas. So I try to avoid that as long as I can and then speak truth, but just do it as a person. But how do you approach that in your community? [00:27:53] Speaker A: So let's say I have the coffee shop that I frequent. I've had a lot of gospel opportunities with some of the baristas, and some people have come to church through that, great conversations. And I try to, I want to be exceedingly kind and respectful and get to know their lives. And how is the, the concert you played this week? You know, that, that kind of stuff. But also just not be embarrassed about who I am inappropriately, like, when it, when it's appropriate. [00:28:25] Speaker B: You're going to have your Bible. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I, I just. [00:28:28] Speaker B: When I. Bible, by the way. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So there's a story behind this that I probably, I should tell, but it would be too long. [00:28:35] Speaker B: But I do have to say this. Do I have to say this? So back when I did martial arts. [00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:40] Speaker B: And you got a new black belt. [00:28:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:41] Speaker B: You would, like, tie it to your trailer hitch and drag it around because everybody can tell. Oh, you just got that. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:28:47] Speaker B: So you must not, you must not really be a black belt. So you're gonna have to rough that one up a little bit. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Okay, I'll tell the story. So some of the guys that I had discipled over the years bought me one of these Bibles. [00:29:02] Speaker B: Calf skin. [00:29:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So beautiful. Beautiful. I think this is actually goat skin. I think, I don't know. It's, it's a nice skin. It's a nice skin. And they bought me a Bible just like this. When we were about to plant. And it's. It means so much to me like that they bought it for me that in my. My youngest was really young then. So I had some drawings that he affectionately put into the, the Bible. While I wasn't paying attention, we just bought our puppy and it has like the, the edge that was. Yeah, not on, not on. So it's like so many things. But then the binding started to go out and I called Crossway and I'm like, hey, this is a lifetime warranty. Can I get it fixed? And they're like, we'll just ship you a new one. So I've had this Bible for about a year and I was waiting. We moved two weeks ago and I was waiting until we move to crack it open because my goal that I have in life is to be able to. I have this image in my mind of on my deathbed handing my kids Bibles from certain times of we do the same thing, you know, so this could be like the Bible that we cracked open when we moved into that house on Adelaide. You know, that's, you know, that's what I'm seeing. Yeah, go ahead. [00:30:21] Speaker B: Yeah, we did the same thing. Real similar, real similar Bible to the one that I preach. Preach with. [00:30:29] Speaker A: So, yeah, just crack that open like two weeks ago. And yeah, I do feel like I have to justify. I do read my Bible. It's just, I just. [00:30:38] Speaker B: No, it's like. And you have those wide margins so that. [00:30:41] Speaker A: Oh, you can take notes. [00:30:42] Speaker B: It's great when you write things down. Like I don't have great handwriting, so I'm typing more than I'm writing. But when I write in my Bible, it's not for me, it's for my kids, you know. But same kind of deal we. I've used. I've kept every Bible, my preaching Bible through the years with that idea that each child is going to have one. You know, I'm probably not far from a new. And I'm kind of telling you earlier, we're coming up to that 30 year mark and I kind of, kind of feels like halftime. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:12] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's probably, probably time to start thinking about that. But. But yeah, that'll be special. Yeah, that'll be special. Tell me about your call to ministry. [00:31:23] Speaker A: So I met my wife in college and this will connect. Her story is very different than mine. She grew up in Rhode island, so that was the relational connection with Rhode Island. She had never been to church, not even once for a wedding or a funeral before college. That was her upbringing. So we Started doing. [00:31:43] Speaker B: Were they just purely secular? [00:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah, well, they were at the time. They were both atheists and, yeah, just completely secular. So when we graduated college, we were dating at the time, and I went to visit her family for the first time in providence. So I'm 22 and walking downtown, and I remember thinking, someone should plant a church here. Now, at the time, I wasn't thinking about ministry at all. And I hardly even knew what church planning was. But that thought came to mind. Fast forward a year. We got married. And over that year, a lot of circumstances happened, tumultuous circumstances, where there was an opportunity to lead that college ministry or to get involved in that college ministry. And through a variety of circumstances, God led me to assume that role. And the rest is history there, just there on the college campus. [00:32:45] Speaker B: It's important that you say it that way, because I think we assume, maybe especially in the south, it may not be the same where you're at, But I think guys here assume that it's more like a burning bush experience. And sometimes it is, but it's not always. And I would say probably half the time is circumstantial that you get in a place there's a need. You recognize God's gifted you to meet the need. You go through a process of seeking counsel, and he reveals that that's what he's designed you for. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:33:17] Speaker B: And church planting itself is a unique calling. So you had already done one, is that correct, before you went to Providence? [00:33:25] Speaker A: So, yeah, I was involved Right. When I graduated with the church plant in the Des Moines area before I had to shift and focus on the university. So that was very formative. Right. From graduating, going into that. Yeah. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Did you have a lot of underwriters and sponsors helping you with it? [00:33:43] Speaker A: Oh, so I wasn't leading the church plant. And there are just a lot of lessons. I look back, and some of the guys that led that are some of my best friends, a lot of. I feel like we learned a lot of things of what not to do. And that has been very valuable for me. Now, you know, 15 years later, they. [00:34:04] Speaker B: Say that financial funding is massively important in church plants. Have you found that to be true when you went into Providence? Just. You don't have to give me specifics if it's too personal. But what kind of funding did you have? Like, what was roughly the dollar amount that you went into the city with? [00:34:25] Speaker A: Oh, so. Well, Covid happened. And Covid happened was both a good and bad thing. It was bad for a support raising, but it was good in the sense I was immensely thankful that if I had my timeline, we would have started before, like right before the world shut down. So I was like overjoyed that we didn't show up to the city at that time. So. But for support raising, it wasn't great. But our sending church was generous. They gave us like 30,000 a year to get off. Now in Providence, that's not a ton. But we also moved with 29 adults across the country from Iowa. [00:35:09] Speaker B: Did they know you or was it just because of sin or how did that. [00:35:13] Speaker A: So they were a part of the sinning. Most of them were part of the sinning church. Some of them I'd known for forever. A number of them I knew before they were Christians. [00:35:22] Speaker B: So these are people that are relocating to help, but they're doing their normal jobs. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So we had that as like a giving base and obviously more than that, but also. But yeah, if you're going to plant a church in a secular environment, especially in the northeast, it's expensive. It's expensive and support raising is vital when it comes to that. But it's not like if you just have a full bank account, then you're good because there have been many. Anyone who's been in a progressive city has stories of people that have come in, dropped a lot of money and the money ran out and they're gone. Those stories are very, very normal. So it takes like, it takes more than that, but it is a crucial part of it. Yeah. [00:36:18] Speaker B: What is your approach? I know there's different models of church planting. Tell me a little bit about your strategy going in. And how do you, how do you, what are your metrics? How do you know if it's working or not? [00:36:31] Speaker A: So I think when it comes to Ed Stetser a while ago wrote like an article on five different methods of church planting. So from multi site to launch large to house church movement. And when we were preparing to plant a church, I wrote an article or a presentation to the leadership at the time of that church saying that I think you can learn something from all of the different methods. They all an emphasis that is actually really helpful. So we try to take the best of all those. So the launch large kind of uses a, hey, let's build momentum to a point. You know, the house church movement is like if you can't outpace the people that you have. So let's develop a good community within all these different lessons. So we're trying to do that. And the thing that I always look to is are people actually Becoming Christians, it's like, that's why you start a church is if we're just attracting people from other churches. That's not what church planning is about. In fact, I spent a good amount of the time the first year before we even started meeting with pastors, especially those who are very like minded in the area and being like, we're not going to, if somebody comes from your church, we're going to send them back unless there's a good reason for them to be like. And one of the reasons I was doing that is for my sake, because I knew there'd be a temptation, especially when we got desperate of like, we need to grow or we're going to die to not do that. So. And by God's grace, we've seen people become Christians. That's been the primary growth metric, conversion growth of people becoming Christians. And we've had some people join us, you know, that our Christians more thankful for that. But that's the way that's what I look at. It's like, okay, who's becoming a Christian? Actually? [00:38:31] Speaker B: How long have you been there? [00:38:33] Speaker A: So we've lived there for about four years. And the church will have its three year anniversary in September. [00:38:41] Speaker B: Okay, so you go in 29 people with you. Right. And then, and then your, your family's like a fourth of the congregation. [00:38:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. There are multiple ways to grow a church. [00:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah, there are. So we jokingly say anytime we're running low, we're not baptizing enough. We have a Song of Solomon series and nine months later, it tends to work. So you're, you're in there. Did you have a property or were you renting? Were you meeting in a home? What did it look like? [00:39:14] Speaker A: So for that first year, which was our moving year getting then because everybody didn't move at the same time. And so we were just kind of house church basically for a year. So we met. [00:39:27] Speaker B: You're doing Lord's Day worship. [00:39:28] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So and the reason why we did that is because God's people were meant to worship God. So we're not going to take a break from that. But it wasn't public in the sense of you couldn't find out where we were online, you can invite people, but it wasn't official. We didn't want it to feel as official for new people. So we did that for about a year and some horrible stories just like we had in our backyard. And Providence has a rat problem. So I'd be teaching from Ephesians and then a rat would scurry behind me. There was one time a rat stopped right behind me and looked at everybody, just paused. And I was like, what's going on? Like, everybody is like, so I can. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Gotta give you my rat story. In our first church in Kentucky, we had one fall in the Baptistery, this Jeffersonian building. So with a big baptistry up above my head and he's swimming back and forth the whole sermon. And so I would notice people going. I mean, it was obvious like the whole congregation was just watching this rat. I'd lost them, had no idea. I wish I'd known I could have some fun with it, but. But yeah, they can. They can. They can be a distraction. [00:40:44] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So a lot of like, I don't know if we would have done. If I were to go back, we probably wouldn't have had those services in my backyard. But like, a lot of that prep time and then I started to look for a building. And the real estate in Providence is rough, I bet, really rough, both to find it and also just the cost. So I received. I felt like I was trying to go to a middle school dance. I received so many no's, so much rejection. And after like three months where I was hours and hours a week focusing on that, I decided I'm just going to start praying every block of Providence until God gives a location. So I made a Google map, started to track just praying over the city. And one day I was walking down Green street, which is downtown Providence, and I see a fer lease sign. Now I'd call. I was obviously on the Internet calling everybody. I saw this for lease sign, called the number, and this is about a week until our drop dead date. We have to find a building. And I called the number. They're like, hey, just come in right now. And one day before the drop dead date, we signed the lease. So it's an old bill or it's an old bank downtown. Expensive, but for the area, reasonable. And it's been great. So at the time, schools would not let anybody from the outside go into the schools because of COVID and because just the environment. You're a church. I don't know if we want that. So it's really been good. Most church plants are doing the setup teardown for the first years and years and years. And we've had a space that's completely ours. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Oh, that's a great benefit. [00:42:28] Speaker A: So I just feel it's just a complete grip. [00:42:31] Speaker B: How did you do things like worship the practical aspects of Lord's day gathering? How did you do all that. [00:42:37] Speaker A: So thankfully we had one of the guys that came on that. One of the guys that came out was very skilled worship leader, so he's been able to lead out on that. And as soon as we got our space, we were able to. A close friend of mine, I knew him before he was a Christian, came to know the Lord through the college ministry, volunteered his time to come out and set up all the sound stuff. And he's very competent and does that professionally. [00:43:08] Speaker B: It looks like a young congregation. [00:43:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm the old guy. There are a few people older than me, but generally everybody. [00:43:15] Speaker B: You're 39, is that right? [00:43:16] Speaker A: 37. [00:43:17] Speaker B: 37. So, yeah, I looked around on Facebook and the website and it looked like a very young congregation. So you've got, you know, these, these 20 somethings, 30 somethings, planting. You have a good group to start with. How, how long before you saw your first conversion? [00:43:36] Speaker A: So our first conversion was before we even launched. It's. It's a phenomenal story. The first college that we started reaching out to was Rhode Island College. And one of my best friends, Jordan Anderson, he's our college ministry director, he fought in Afghanistan, so he didn't go to college. But then through that he was able to go to college for free. So he decided to leverage that for the sake of mission, go to Rhode Island College as a missionary and get his degree. So he's there on campus and he meets this guy. His name is Nate Lackman. And Nate Lackman, when he was a junior, won the national championship for wrestling in his weight class. And for his entire life, that was like the pinnacle. And that summer he's like, that was it. Like, I've been kind of trying to get to this point. And that was it. He comes into his senior year really looking for something, meets Jordan. Jordan invites him to a Bible study and he becomes a Christian that fall. And he was our first baptism. [00:44:44] Speaker B: So how did you baptize him? [00:44:47] Speaker A: So we have like this water trough that we fill up, that we fill up and put into the bank. So at first we would overfill it. So we called the front like the splash zone. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:02] Speaker A: So we've got it down to kind of partially Methodist. [00:45:05] Speaker B: Sprinkle a few people along the way. [00:45:07] Speaker A: It's like, I guess you're all baptized. [00:45:10] Speaker B: How do you feel like it's going to. [00:45:11] Speaker A: I'm just very thankful. It has been harder than I anticipated. [00:45:18] Speaker B: In what way? [00:45:19] Speaker A: I just, you know, I know you've written a book on spiritual warfare. I haven't thought more about spiritual warfare. More than any time in my life. And we recently did a series on that. And oh, man, there's just so many things. And I'm not prone to be. I'm Dutch, so I'm not as emotional as some people. And I celebrate work well done with more work. I'm not that type of person. But just eerily timed things. Things that just don't make sense. Just opposition. Things even just within our family and marriage the first year that just didn't make sense. Things we'd argue about that we'd never argue about before. [00:46:09] Speaker B: It's just he will overplay his hand occasionally. [00:46:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:13] Speaker B: And we've gone through the same seasons to where it's like, yeah, you know, every couple has arguments and kids rebel. That's a little. It's a little abnormal. [00:46:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:25] Speaker B: And then you start looking around and go, oh, well, we're doing a series on marriage or we're starting this new big ministry thing. And I'm always thankful when he pushes too hard. The enemy, because it reminds us, oh, this is intentional. I told the staff yesterday I'm going on sabbatical next week. And I said, just be ready because I've never been on vacation that something really weird didn't happen. So just be ready. Dan's in charge. Follow Dan, you know, and I'll see you in August. You guys work it out. But it's very predictable. If anyone had. If you had no Bible, you just had the gospel and a few stories, you would figure out that the enemy's real pretty quick if you're serious. And if someone goes, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're just not a concern of the enemy. [00:47:18] Speaker A: Yeah, you need to be. Yeah. [00:47:20] Speaker B: But when you're. Especially a church planter, one of our. When we planted our first new campus, someone told our planter Josh, said, josh, you know, when you decide to plant a church, there's a conversation in the war room in hell and they say, what's his kids names? [00:47:42] Speaker A: What's that? [00:47:43] Speaker B: What are his kids names? The enemy asks this question because they began they know how to target you. And we just observed that to be a very real thing. How do you stand against that? [00:47:56] Speaker A: Well, we've become more prayerful, certainly. And I've become more aware of it in the scriptures, like verses starting to stand out that never stood out before. And I think I'm way less impressed with myself than I've ever been in my life. I'm just like, God is going to be the one that does this. And don't get me wrong, things are going well. Like the church is growing. We went to two services in February. We're going to be growing out of that space before our leave. Like, that's one of the problems that we need to solve. And this is a place where providence. I think I could be wrong about this because you don't go around and ask pastors, so how many people. It's like one of the things you don't do. But I would say the largest evangelical in that evangelical church in that city, I think is around 300, 250. [00:48:50] Speaker B: That's a mega church in that. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So. And that's 175,000 people in the city in the south or the Midwest. You'd have a very large church in a city like that. So we like, we've seen above what we projected. But I'm immensely thankful for the pushback and for the way God has used it in my life. [00:49:16] Speaker B: New levels, new devils has been my experience. It's different. They'll come at you differently. The warfare that we engaged in as an itinerant speaker when I began for the first nine years was very different than it is now. It was different. In a church of 300 versus 1300, it. There's some things that get easier because you have a staff that can help you. So I'm not having to drive the church van to bring kids to church like I once did. But at the same time, there's different angles, different traps, different attacks, and it's very real. And I hope people know to pray for your pastor, especially if you have a church planter that you're supporting or that you're serving with, just bathe that family in prayer constantly. Do you have a strategy of prayer? Like, do you have people if something is happening that you need people to pray for? Like now? [00:50:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:50:19] Speaker B: I don't mean put it on your prayer list next Wednesday night. I need you to get on your knees and pray. Have you developed that? I didn't at your age. But I'm curious if you. [00:50:27] Speaker A: So we. We had a text system that to just be honest, the person running it is no longer running it anymore. So that has gone off. But we do have a monthly email that goes out and if there is something really urgent, we could send it. [00:50:43] Speaker B: Out whenever you need to. [00:50:45] Speaker A: So if somebody wants to get that, if you go to SacredCity Church. So instead of.com church support, it gives all the ways that you can support the church. And the first one and the most important is to pray so you can receive all the newsletters and just be praying for us. And in a. [00:51:06] Speaker B: We'll put a link to that in the description. [00:51:08] Speaker A: So I know every Christian has to say this, but when you're in a very lost environment, you just. That truth just sinks in a little bit more. Like, this will not work unless people. [00:51:21] Speaker B: Are praying for us. And you can tell like you could. You can. I'm not sure I'm like you. I'm not given toward emotionalism. I'm not highly charismatic in my tendencies, but I can very much tell if people are praying for me. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:51:36] Speaker B: When I first came into this church, I've never walked into an environment with more people who were sincerely praying and praying for me than I inherited here. And that was the key to it, you know. But I can tell, and I can tell when it's waning. It's a strange sensation, but I can discern, and I know I need to really kind of hit that again to remind people how desperately we need them praying. Probably this was advice that I received from my friends who were more charismatic. And it was prayerfully discern a small group of people that you can take personal, private prayer needs to that will kind of go to bat for you in prayer. And we started that just a few months ago. And I can tell a distinct difference with it. [00:52:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:26] Speaker B: And things will come up that it's like, either, you know, great opportunity or it could be a threat, but I send those to a signal group and he communicates out to everybody else and they're committed to pray. They're praying during our services, before our services, just whenever they get a chance to come up and pray over me. And we've noticed a distinct difference in just the sincerity of our both preaching worship and what's happening in the course of a Sunday or Tuesday, whatever it is. But I wish I'd done that earlier. In retrospect, you've taken a big step in establishing a school, which is something typically. It's like when we get all this other stuff taken care of, we'll pray about if the Lord wants us to do a school. What led you to do that? So. [00:53:21] Speaker A: I'm going to say something. I'm going to offend some people with this, but I don't. It's true. So I think there's some hypocrisy sometimes in the church planning world where when you're out kind of raising support for your ministry and you're like. You're just like, this is the most lost place ever, you know? Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing on Providence or whatever. Whatever it is. And you hit that drum and then you take your kids and you put them into the school system that is that Sodom and Gomorrah school system. And it's like that. You have to choose between one of those two things. Yeah. Now, I'm not saying every school system in the nation is like that. My parents have been in the public school system their entire careers. That's what they do. So. But it's like, if you're in a city like that, you cannot just hand over your kids. [00:54:11] Speaker B: And, you know, if you grew up. Most of our audience is in the South. [00:54:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:15] Speaker B: So they grew up like I did, where, like in fourth grade, we had daily devotions in the public elementary school, middle school. I remember the day that Ms. Dutton in fourth grade could no longer do Bible reading and prayer. [00:54:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:29] Speaker B: And she, in tears, said, this will be our last devotional today. And I thought, okay, well, you know, we'll do something different, I guess. But I could tell that that was important to her and she was doing something through that. But we grew up with that. You know, you could walk in. In my lifetime as a preacher, I could have a voluntary assembly, give an invitation. Kids give their life to Christ at a public high school. Those days are gone, and especially they've long been gone where you're at. And not only that, we can't. And gosh, probably I don't know what percentage of our congregation is in the public school system. There's some godly people that are teaching, that are administrators. At the same time, there are higher powers above any of your local people who are intentionally pushing a worldview, an ideology that is getting into our schools through the library system. And we can't overstate how real that is, because I think people, their mind goes back to what we had. It's not that day anymore. [00:55:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:55:40] Speaker B: And so the most difficult place for my soon to be senior to live out her faith is in some of her classrooms in high school where she's going to be almost violently opposed by the person in power. [00:55:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:57] Speaker B: You know, and then. Not to mention the college. [00:56:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And depending on where you at, just the temperature will be affected, you know. Depending on. [00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so, you know, we. We did the same. We homeschooled up through a certain grade, and then when we came here, we had a Christian school through eighth grade. So when you. Right, yeah. When you began to think through that, how long have you had it? [00:56:22] Speaker A: So it started this past fall. Fall of 2024. [00:56:25] Speaker B: Very young. [00:56:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, it's very, very, very fresh. So I think oftentimes church plants can. If you focus on church planting without focus on focusing on the education and rearing of children, it's trying to succeed in the present while planning to fail in the future. That's. That's what it is. So I think you have to have both. [00:56:46] Speaker B: Good work. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Something happen in the future. So when we first moved there, long story short, I found out that there's a local pastor looking to start a classical Christian school. And we connected and we started to make dream and vision on that. And it was going to start the same time that the church was going to start, and it ended up falling through because we didn't have enough teachers. And I look back, and I'm so immensely through, thankful for that. Like, starting those two things at the same time sure is diff. It's a certain level of stupid that I was gonna be at, and I might be. I'm probably at a level, but just not as high as that would have been. [00:57:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of like you look at that guy and where you were at at the time and commend him for his ambition and his faith and. And urgency. But at the same time, you thank God for those unanswered prayers. Yes, occasionally. Because it would, you know, just ate you for dinner, you know? [00:57:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:57:42] Speaker B: So. [00:57:43] Speaker A: So at the time, it fell through, and then there was another. And this guy decided, yeah, I don't think I have the bandwidth. I'm gonna move on. Well, there's another man who's in. In college ministry at Brown University with their athletes in action. It's like the athlete version of crew. [00:57:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:57:58] Speaker A: And I knew he was interested in that, and I went to him and I pitched. I'm like, I can't. We're starting a church. I can't be Batman, but I'll be your Robin, minus the tights. You know, I'll be your Robin. I'll come alongside of you. What do you think? And I didn't think about it for a while because we were starting a church. About a year later, he came. He's like, I thought about that. Let's do it. And he has been phenomenal. He was the right leader at the right time. And this first year, we started off with about 40 students. And this upcoming years, that's a big start. Yeah. Yeah. There's a big need. There's a lot of people, like, I want some options. [00:58:36] Speaker B: Can you. Can you unpack? Because certain in this community, certain people will be familiar with. When you say classical education, they'll know what you're talking about. But can you give us just a quick primer on the difference between a classical approach and a modern approach of education? [00:58:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So classical is being used in the same way that you talk about classic rock or a classic car, as in old but good. That's what people usually mean. So classical education started with like the Greeks, Plato, Socrates, and in early Christendom they thought, hey, Augustine has this great quip of what is true is ours, you know, or they used like the pillage. [00:59:19] Speaker B: All true. [00:59:20] Speaker A: Yeah, all true. Yeah. That's, that's actually what the quote is. So it's like they started to use that same form of method, form of teaching, but with a Christian approach. And the goal of it is to form a human into what it means to be a human. This is where we get the word humanities. This is where we get the word liberal arts, as in freedom. What does it mean to be a free person? The modern approach is to create workers and citizens. Socrates said that to train someone in what to do is the education of a slave. So it's obviously you need to know what to do if you're going to be a mechanic, you need to know how an engine works. But if that's all, you know, you're just another cog in the overall machine. [01:00:04] Speaker B: And you can't carry on a conversation about anything outside of your expertise. [01:00:08] Speaker A: Yes. [01:00:08] Speaker B: But you know, you look back at time, certain periods of time when, whether it was Europe or America were cranking out, it seemed like Renaissance men. [01:00:17] Speaker A: Yes. [01:00:17] Speaker B: That could do many things really well. And they were a product of a classical education. [01:00:21] Speaker A: Yes. [01:00:22] Speaker B: They, they knew the, the ancient languages, they were able to read original sources. And when you, when you give your mind all those different tools, it, the, the country or the church produces people who are thinking on a different level. [01:00:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:41] Speaker B: And seeing, seeing the long term effects of bigger things, decisions they're making. So I wanted to just explain that a little bit because it's really worth looking into if a family hasn't explored that model. It's challenging. When you go into college, if you go into a college that's not built around that, they're assuming you've been educated through the public system and they test that way, they teach that way. And so you're seeing with Hillsdale, are they a classical model? [01:01:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [01:01:16] Speaker B: And so you're seeing some schools like that emerging that are kind of that next step for kids that are trained in the classical model. But it's well worth exploring. And I would imagine in your community you have a number of people that would be even non Christians that value it and see the value of that education. [01:01:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So people are looking for alternatives. And that's the reason why the school is growing. We're a Christian school, so at least one of the parents needs to be a professing Christian. But we're viewing this as we're preparing our kids to be warriors. That's what we want. We want them to understand the world, to understand God's word and be able to interact with those two things. Things. And there are a lot of different methods. And within the church, as a pastor, you want parents to have the freedom to be parents. Parents need to have the authority to make those decisions for their kids. But I'm unapologetic of what I think would be wise. But then as a parent, you make decisions. [01:02:25] Speaker B: Same if you're looking at, you know, kind of a model or a hero that you're. Because you don't need to reinvent the wheel on things. Are there any. I know we mentioned Schaefer earlier. Who are some of the people who've. You've looked at as man. I want to kind of walk in their footsteps. Maybe give me a couple like Schaefers, no longer with us. And then modern. Who do you see yourself kind of following their example? [01:02:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So I am pretty much always reading Francis Shaver and C.S. lewis. I'm just pretty much there, like almost always on my bed stand, always going back to them. And that started in college. [01:03:14] Speaker B: And they were. They were equipped and strong in reaching the kind of people you're trying to reach as well. [01:03:21] Speaker A: Yes. [01:03:21] Speaker B: So. [01:03:22] Speaker A: And they had the ability to see. There's so many times you're reading them and they're like, how did they know? You know, it's like, did God come to them in a dream or it's like, how did they know what the future is? [01:03:35] Speaker B: Purely prophetic. [01:03:36] Speaker A: Yes. And it's just because they knew the consequence of ideas. They're like, well, if you think this, then this is the route that's going. And they were just looking. [01:03:46] Speaker B: I remember with, you know, a good example from Schaeffer's ministry when most conservative evangelicals were looking at things like abortion and saying Billy Graham was pro abortion at one point and for Criswell at First Baptist Dallas, shocking. Some of the things you can go back and read, they just didn't see it. They hadn't thought on those levels. Schaeffer was one of the first people who was like, we've got to take a stand here. [01:04:18] Speaker A: He was the one that convinced the. Generally convinced the evangelical mind to shift in a more biblical way, right? In a more biblical way. [01:04:27] Speaker B: Tell us about. Give us a primer on Schaeffer real quick. Because a lot of people don't know him this generation. It seems like they've not read a lot of Schaeffer. They've read his disciples. So as with Lewis, you may read Keller. Yes, Keller was reading Lewis. So who were. What was unique about Schaeffer? [01:04:45] Speaker A: So I was introduced to Schaeffer when I was in college. One of the majors I had in college was political science. And I was trying to think of what to do for my capstone. So my pastor at the time recommended a Christian manifesto by Francis Schaeffer. So that's his, like, political manifesto, right? Based off of Samuel Rutherford's Lex Rex. Like, there's law above king, not king above law. So I read that, and it was, oh, man, I'm so thankful for this. Looking back, I can see kind of early stages, how God was preparing me for the future. But I wrote this very Christian. Frances Schaeffer is not liked in a lot of communities. And my professor, she was a political science lesbian, like, just very much on different. But she proved for me to do this. So it's like, very. I'm trying to communicate as a Christian with a very Christian theme to a very secular environment. And that was where, like, I started to read Schaeffer. And he was. What he was trying to do through his writing and through his ministry that's called Labrie, that was in Switzerland, was trying to be a bridge from conservative Christianity to the hippie movement. So his community and through his writings, they were trying to create a space where all these hippies backpacking through Europe would have a place and they would go to try to discover. Is this true? [01:06:22] Speaker B: This is during the time of, like, the Jesus movement. [01:06:24] Speaker A: Yes. [01:06:25] Speaker B: A lot of people have watched the movie and are familiar with that time period, so it may have even been a little before that. But he would bring people into kind of a communal setting, would you say, and disciple them and pour his life into them. And some of these people went on to take the gospel back to their universities, whatever it might be. [01:06:51] Speaker A: One of those guys, Nancy Pearcy, was a disciple of Labrie, and it was a huge impact. And then he started to write, and that culture of bringing the Bible to that environment started to be multiplied through the writing because he was learning all these things. There's only A certain thing you can learn when you bring what this says to a certain environment. And he was on the cutting edge of that, bringing those two things together, learning all those lessons. And I think a lot of people took that and it multiplied. And I think those lessons are still immensely valuable. [01:07:31] Speaker B: If you were going to start. If somebody said, I've never really heard of Francis Schaeffer, I want to start somewhere. Where would you tell them to. What would be the first read to. [01:07:39] Speaker A: Get a. Oh, man. Okay. How Then we shall live? I'm reading Death in the City right now, and it's been very valuable, so maybe I'll just recommend death. So he starts off with like, as America, we cannot think that we can just continue to rebel against God and not reap the consequences. And then he talks about to a secular world one of the main doctrines people need to hear. And this is almost counterintuitive. People don't think this. He's like, it's the judgment of God of like, you will stand before someone and give an account. Explain that the secular worldview is that there's no account. [01:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And so counterintuitive in the sense that we don't. It's like, don't start there. Start with the most gentle basic. But he's saying, lead with. You'll give an account. [01:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, lead with that. And deconstructing all the things that go against that. I don't have to give an account because if you. For a secular person and a progressive person, if you say God loves you, oftentimes the response. And there's always people that it won't be the case to. But oftentimes the response is like, well, yeah, why wouldn't he? [01:08:57] Speaker B: Right. [01:08:58] Speaker A: They may not say that, but it's assumed. That's what they. It's like, I kind of love me too. [01:09:03] Speaker B: I love me too. [01:09:04] Speaker A: That's the way it is. So it's like, you know, like, no, it's not just nothing. After you die, you will give an account. And you actually know this. And kind of doing some Romans 1, 2, and 3 with people. He makes a connection in that book of the environment that Paul is writing to in Romans is very similar kind of pagan culture that we are dealing with today. And he was saying, with the hippie movement, and decades later, I think it's still very much in the culture with the kids of the hippie movement, of going through Romans 1, 2, and 3 solely of like, you will give an account. And then he said, if he was given an hour on the train with someone he would spend 45 minutes deconstructing what they believe and showing that they will give an account, and then 10, 15 minutes saying, okay, now this is how Jesus stood in your place for it. [01:09:54] Speaker B: That's so fascinating because everybody seems like every time I open up social media, someone new as deconstructing Christianity and trying to build something in its place. And that generation was teaching us the fallacies of other worldviews. Louis, when did you get exposed to Lewis? [01:10:15] Speaker A: Lewis, around the same time read Mere Christianity and that. I read it twice when I was in college. The first time, like, it was really good, but he should quote the Bible more. And then I read it about a year and a half later and I realized he was quoting the Bible constantly. [01:10:31] Speaker B: It just. [01:10:31] Speaker A: The references weren't there. I was too ignorant to realize that. So around the same time and just consumed him constantly since. And the same thing, different environment. So about 40 years prior, Oxford, but the same lie, the same secular lie that has only grown since. [01:10:57] Speaker B: And Mere Christianity is probably a good starting place for Lewis, I'm assuming. Were you naturally a Keller fan as a planting in a secular environment, going to Manhattan as a disciple of Lewis, or who would you look at in the modern world and say, yeah, he's kind of a trendsetter that I've looked to. [01:11:23] Speaker A: This is gonna get me in trouble. [01:11:24] Speaker B: And it's a trick. It's not a trick question. Here's here. Let me tell you, Let me tell you up front. Yeah, I've. I'm a huge fan of Keller. Yeah, I love Keller. I don't like some of his Third Way approaches, how they've been interpreted and applied. So there's things that I would look at and say, yeah, you know, that that's been a hiding place for some cowardly men at times. [01:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:46] Speaker B: But at the same time, he probably introduced me to Lewis and, you know, he taught me to think. In some ways, it's been very, very helpful. [01:11:56] Speaker A: Yeah. So the reason why, you'll understand when I say why it's going to get me in trouble, but. Which I don't. I don't actually care. But. So the same time discovering Lewis and Schaeffer, I discovered two modern preachers, Tim Keller and Doug Wilson. And I started listening to both of them at the same time, which was a crazy cocktail. [01:12:17] Speaker B: It really is. And I love Wilson. [01:12:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So those two. But those two. [01:12:23] Speaker B: But I honestly think you need them both to make sense. [01:12:26] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So both of them are downstream from Schaeffer and Lewis. And I think with the Combination. What it produces is what I mentioned earlier, a love for people, but also not caring what they think. [01:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. [01:12:42] Speaker A: I really do think those two things are very important. [01:12:45] Speaker B: You know, I look just about every sermon that I preach, I'm going to reference both of them. I'm going to at least see what they said about it. I don't mean I'm quoting them, but I'm looking to see what both of those guys said about the text because Keller would see a philosophical level to the text that I don't often see. And Wilson will see a practical level that. That's practically applied to a different space. [01:13:10] Speaker A: Yes. [01:13:10] Speaker B: I see it applied to just, you know, a guy living, you know, in North Florida. He's seeing more culturally how things are moving and developing, and that's been helpful. You know, they. They both have a lot to offer. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:23] Speaker B: And. And I. I think I would love to hear those guys have about a three hour conversation. [01:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:29] Speaker B: Over some things. [01:13:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:30] Speaker B: And just see how if they sway one another because you're going to differ on some things. Pretty. Pretty big. [01:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And a lot of the same influences, just different environments and different emphases. But I think those two, those two people would make a better combination than people assume. [01:13:47] Speaker B: I do too. Or even maybe they would assume. [01:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:13:50] Speaker B: I think it could be some fascinating works there. So if people are watching and they say, you know, this resonates with me, I want to get involved. Where do we send them? [01:14:00] Speaker A: So, yeah, when it comes to the church, SacredCity, church support, it's kind of where, like new people, you can go there first. When it comes to Providence Classical Academy, that's on. [01:14:18] Speaker B: Is that separate 501C3. [01:14:19] Speaker A: It's a separate 501C3. And then campus fellowship is campusfellowship.com. so those are the three websites of those three entities that we talked about. And I think my contact is on all three websites. So there's somewhere on there they can. [01:14:36] Speaker B: Reach out to you. [01:14:37] Speaker A: Reach out. And I apologize in advance for being slow in the email, but I'll get to it. [01:14:42] Speaker B: Let me say I checked out your website and it's first class. It's very well done. And that matters in the world that we live in. You know, it used to be they would make a decision within the first five minutes if they're ever going to come back. You don't get that anymore. They're scoping you out online and they're either probably making a decision to join before they ever visit. When they walk in, they're yours to lose in a sense, if they're a believer. So, yeah, kudos for that, brother. Anything else that you would just say that we could pray for you about or any other ways that we can help. Are you hosting groups coming up on that support link? [01:15:31] Speaker A: We do have information about different mission trips that we host. We host like four or five a year and we love having teams come up, both for our benefit as a church, but also for the benefit of the sending church. I think a lot is learned and is brought back totally because to me, I wish this wasn't the case, but the south and the Midwest is becoming more like Providence than Providence is becoming like the Southern boys. That's just the current cultural moment. Maybe there's been a shift recently, but it's too early to tell. [01:16:05] Speaker B: Right? [01:16:06] Speaker A: So I view of like people are getting into a time machine, going 10, 20 years in the future, coming back and like, okay, now you can prepare. [01:16:14] Speaker B: You know, it's like, oh, that's awesome. [01:16:15] Speaker A: So it's highly valuable. If you don't mind, I would love to just end with a verse. This is what I was reading this morning. It says, preserve me, O God. This is Psalm 16. For in you I take refuge. I say to the Lord, you are my Lord. I have no good apart from you. And it's really. That makes it all worth it. Like God, there's no goodness apart from, from God. [01:16:38] Speaker B: Well, our, our heart on this program is to be on the tip of the spear when it comes to that engagement with kingdom and culture and how all those things fit together. And so I don't think we could have. Could have got to a sharper point maybe than where you're at there in Rhode island and the work that you're doing there in Providence. So God be with you. We're praying for you. And thank you for coming on the program today. [01:17:01] Speaker A: Thank you, Terry. I appreciate it. [01:17:02] Speaker B: It.