The Holy Spirit, Demons, and Miracles with Jenny Randle

[00:00:10] Speaker A: This book actually was birthed from a conversation you and I had. I came back from a women's retreat and it was probably the most profound ministry event I had ever been at. So anyways, you and I were talking about this and I was like, I want to study demonization and I want to study what it actually means that we're in spiritual warfare. And as you and I were talking about, you gave a very pastoral warning which is like, Jenny, your kids are so young. I think you should be really careful about diving into this right now. What's the greater conversation here? Cause it's not being freed from demons. It's the power of God. I want to really understand the power and authority Christ followers have through the power of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling presence. And what does that actually look like? [00:00:53] Speaker B: Welcome back to Code Red. I am your host, Zack Terry. In the studio today we have Emmy award winning producer, Jenny Randall. God has called Jenny into a marvelous ministry. She is a writer with several wonderful, wonderful books on the shelf. Jenny is a speaker and she's a dear friend. And so today we're going to talk about the Holy Spirit. How is he working in the church today? In the body of Christ, the gift of tongues, words of knowledge, all of those things. Welcome to Code Red. Denny Randall, welcome to the Code Red studio. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Thanks for having me here. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Appropriately dressed. You got the memo. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Got the memo. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Got the red. Rocking the red. So you're one of many people who made the migration back east from the west coast. You were an Emmy award winning editor out in Hollywood, I guess, wasn't it? [00:01:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:57] Speaker B: You've been following the news about la. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Going on out there. Did that cultural shift have anything to do with you making the decision to move out of the state? [00:02:08] Speaker A: So when I was working in the entertainment industry, I actually felt called into ministry. So part of the first move was I moved a handful of hours away to help my friends start a church. And then that's where I met my husband and we got married and had kids and then we were like, we want to be by family. So we prayerfully considered San Diego and New York and we landed in New York for seven years. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:29] Speaker B: And so I don't know that I know. How did you come to Christ? [00:02:33] Speaker A: Okay, so I was raised Catholic, went through some of the sacraments and then I didn't really care understand about the triune God. I didn't understand the difference between Jesus and Holy Spirit and Father God. And like it wasn't something that was interesting to me. And I remember there was a profound moment in sixth grade in religious education class, the Spirit. The director said, do you believe in miracles? And I remember just being like, nah, who cares? Like, just, you know, sixth grade. [00:03:02] Speaker B: How old were you? Sixth grade. [00:03:02] Speaker A: Sixth grade, yeah. And I went home and I told my mom, and she was like, jenny, you are a miracle. And I was like, oh, thanks, Mom. Because I was born 1 pound, 12 ounces. I was three months premature. And, you know, 43 years ago, that's a huge deal. Like, that wasn't. I was on the cusp of viability. And so she just recounted that story. And there was a moment that a priest was brought into the room, and my dad, coming from Syracuse, football, like a big collegiate athlete, ends up just pushing the priest away, being like, you will not give her last rites. Which is something in the category preparation. Right? Yeah. So. And then I was in the neonatal unit for months, and there was a moment where the hospital ended up calling and saying, your daughter has a brain bleed. So then my dad's mom, we call her Nana, my Italian grandmother, she ended up on the phone calling all her nuns, you need to pray. You need to pray. They rushed to the hospital and. And it was a miracle. There was no brain bleed. So we could classify that as, you know, the. The test was wrong, it was inaccurate, or it was a mistake, or it was a miracle. So I like to classify things as a miracle. I'm like, maybe the Lord was working. [00:04:12] Speaker B: You know, I would. I would differ from Roman Catholicism on several issues. And some of those nuns, they've got faith. I'm telling you. I've met some nuns. I've known people who've had nuns as friends that, wow, I don't mind if they pray for me. You know, they seem to really know the Lord and connect with him in a unique way. Were you raised. Were they highly religious Catholics or. [00:04:42] Speaker A: No, not my parents. We were, like, loosely attending for the donuts. I'll just be honest. Sunday for the donuts. [00:04:49] Speaker B: It's a good public service announcement for churches. We have good coffee, good donuts. If you're single. We have pretty girls. I mean, just a great place to. [00:04:57] Speaker A: Be, you know, Whatever it takes to get through the doors. Yeah. But when I was 18, so my senior year in high school, my field hockey coach. Do you know what sport that is? [00:05:05] Speaker B: Slightly. I'm from the South. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [00:05:07] Speaker B: We had football, baseball. That's pretty much it. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You just run around with these little sticks. It's fine. It's kind of like Soccer, but on a horse. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Not on a horse. Okay. [00:05:15] Speaker A: No. That would be amazing if it was. So she invited us to church, and I ended up going to church. And it was. They were doing this play called Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames, which is as dramatic as it sounds. No, it wasn't Halloween season. [00:05:31] Speaker B: That's a big thing in the south, but we always do it at Halloween. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Okay, so you've heard of the play? I have, yeah. [00:05:39] Speaker B: So I think I have. Tell me about it a little. [00:05:43] Speaker A: Well, one of your pastors on staff, his dad actually became born again the same way. [00:05:47] Speaker B: So it's kind of a scare you into heaven kind of thing, isn't it? [00:05:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:51] Speaker B: So in the south, we do that as an alternative to a haunted house on Halloween. So the churches will all kind of come together. It's a thing like my. You know, growing up, every Halloween, it was like, okay, who's gonna be Jesus this year? And, yeah, you would. The goal was to scare the H E L L out of them. You know, that's your goal. And so. But it is very dramatic. Was it a car wreck? [00:06:20] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, there was a car wreck. All the elements. And the pastor ended the play saying, if you walk out these doors and get hit by a bus, do you know if you're going to heaven or hell? And now, as a minister, like, I wouldn't really lead with that question, like, looking back. But when I was 18, I was like, no one ever asked me that before, and it didn't seem threatening. And I was like, I don't know if I'm going to heaven or hell. And then, of course, they introduced Jesus and I gave my life to him, and everything's just. [00:06:46] Speaker B: Praise God. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I'm confident that the Lord used that. As you said, it would probably not be my first tool for evangelism, but at that season, it really seems like the Lord did lead a lot of people to Christ. Through it, you came to faith. At what point after that did you sense that it would be more than going to Hollywood, having a secular job, and just serving him as a faithful believer? [00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I always. Ever since I became a Christian at 18, I was just so deeply passionate for Jesus and, like, learning more about him and had this hunger. And I remember there was one moment when I was working in the industry, and I felt as. Like, in my inner spirit, I felt as if God was saying, you're called to be a speaker. And I didn't really have a model of, like, what that looked like. Or what that was going to be in my life. So I ignored it for 10, 10 years. 10 years I ignored it. But you know, with, with God and his promptings, it doesn't really go away. It just gets worse and more annoying. And you're like, oh my gosh, why I can't do this. I'm not ill equipped. You know, I made all the excuses Moses made. I'm not good enough. I'm too young, I'm too old, all the things and. But I would see in Christian spaces other women lead and speak and teach the Bible and I'd like, something would connect and I'd be like, oh my gosh, I feel like I could do that. And. And I had this, I call it my come to Jesus moment where I was driving in LA and I felt I was worshiping and I just felt this still small voice of God say, jenny, you've been asking the wrong question. It's not about who, who do you think I am? Meaning, like, who do I think I am to do that? It's who do you think do you know who I am? Meaning, do I know who God is? And I felt really, I just responded in repentance, realized I made this whole, this whole thing about me. And ministry isn't about. It's not about us anyways. It's all about glorifying God and trusting that he will fill the gaps and he will resource us and he will bring the things to pass that he wants to bring to pass. All we get to do is respond in faithfulness. So after repenting, I began to like, get training and learn what it looks like to be a speaker. And my church at the time in Hollywood had prayer nights and they gave me permission to pray and things like that. So I started seeing more ministry opportunities happening. [00:09:08] Speaker B: For context, when you say they gave you permission to pray, that's like from stage, as a leader, right? [00:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. [00:09:15] Speaker B: So, yeah, for a Baptist, they're hearing it going, wait, don't you, don't we all have. Nobody's giving me permission to pray. Can I pray? Is that. I didn't want them to process it that way. [00:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I love your pastoral heart. Yes. Shepherd us through that moment. Yeah. So just more leadership opportunities. And then we moved. I moved to Orange county, like I said, helped start that church and was doing a lot of media ministry at the time. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Had you had your career blossomed? [00:09:41] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. As an editor, that was the highlight of my career. I joke. That was like my finest moments. [00:09:46] Speaker B: Okay. So you were, you know, one of the Cool things about what you do in your, in the production of these books is they're very, extremely. Well, I mean, as good as any I've seen put together. The editing, the production, the artwork. And they're easy to digest. It's some deep topics, but. But they're. The average person can read your books and make sense. They get the message that you intended for them to receive. And so do you look back and see God's hand and guiding your preparation in the secular world? Like what did you go to school for? [00:10:25] Speaker A: Television. Television production. Yeah. [00:10:27] Speaker B: How did you learn Editing. I'm just curious, how did that transition from television into written? [00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I was right on the cusp of the, the analog digital change in media. And so I moved out to Hollywood with 60 of our college friends that all graduated together. And we had these dreams and I always knew I wanted to be a video editor. So my first job was a receptionist at a post production facility. And they would let me stay late and just try the software. So I was learning the industry software for video editing. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Tell us a few of the projects that people would recognize. I know you had some big ones that you worked on. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I worked back when DVDs were a thing. I did a lot of behind the scenes content for film. So I did like behind the scenes for Kung Fu Panda. Oh gosh, a lot of dreamworks stuff, some Steven Spielberg stuff. So it was like I said, the highlight of my career. [00:11:25] Speaker B: Right. That's important though because so many, so many, you never, never want to question another person's calling. If God's called a person, that's his business. And you can question qualification, but calling is his business. But I have always been fearful of the person who maybe their career is not going so great. They've tried to be a secular entertainer, didn't pan out. Suddenly God calls them into the Christian industry. You know, you just wonder sometimes if maybe they see a niche there more than a calling. So I've always, I've always appreciated if someone makes that decision when things are going well, when they're, when they're, when their business, they don't have to do this. In fact, it will cost you and it will be sacrificial. And you know, that requires you to make some hard decisions it seems during that time. Yeah, but a lot of that, a lot of those lessons have crossed over, it seems, and served you well. [00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I can like trace my career because then I ended up in graphic design and designing book covers. And then my husband and I launched our own marketing business. So I can like look back at the trajectory of my career and be like, oh, I see how God orchestrated it all together. He can use all the things right to stand where we are today. And even you and I got to work together on some projects in writing. And yeah, so it's been really fun. Just the journey of trying to be faithful and show up. [00:12:58] Speaker B: Well, what was your first project to tackle? [00:13:02] Speaker A: My first in writing, it was called Courageous Creative. And there was this. My kids were in preschool, we were living in New York at the time. And I remember they were swimming in this little kiddie pool. And I remember I felt, you know, how you feel that impression from the Lord, like you should do this thing. So I felt, I felt like he was like, Google New Jersey Pastors Conference. So I just googled it and this conference came up and it was all about creativity. And I remember I found out the event coordinator ended up pitching him this idea. Hey, I would love to help leaders develop their God given creativity. Like, what can I help you? Do you need anybody to speak? And he reached out the next day and he's like, this is, this is a divine appointment. The man who invented the Bible app had to step away. He was our main conference speaker. He pitched this. He was gonna do the same exact topic that you gave us. We would love to have you fill that spot. So it was like this really well known. Yeah. And I was like, okay, Lord, we're doing it. So that the lesson I gave at that conference ended up turning into Courageous Creative, which was my first book. [00:14:10] Speaker B: So walk me through the process. And we've talked some about this before, but walk me through the process of going from a concept. Did you start with an agent? [00:14:22] Speaker A: So I self published. So Courageous. Courageous. Courageous Creative was originally called 31 Day Create. And I remember meeting with a mentor and she said, jenny, you're so creative. You could be traditionally published, like you have everything it takes. But that was really intimidating to me. So I was like, I'll just self publish. So ended up hiring, I guess we would call it hybrid publishing. I ended up hiring my own editors, hiring a design team, and the day before a writer speaker conference, I had the self published book in my hand. So I brought five of the books, went to the conference and they had opportunities for you to meet with agents. So I met with an agent. I just like shoved the book in my hand and this agent flipped through it and he's like, oh my gosh, you have Tozer, you have Spurgeon. It's so creative. And he was Like, I want to give you a contract. I would love to represent you. So we just ended up shipping that book out to all the different publishers, and then from there I got a publishing contract. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Did you lose any creative control in doing that? [00:15:24] Speaker A: Like, yes. [00:15:26] Speaker B: Was that hard? [00:15:29] Speaker A: I'm five books deep now with traditional publishing, and I've learned when to fight for something and when to let it go and when to trust that they know better than I do. So it's humbling. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Well, and the mediums are so different between writing video and then public speaking. Those are three very different platforms to work in and out of. Do you have a favorite writing? Really? [00:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's become my favorite. [00:15:56] Speaker B: And then what after that? [00:15:59] Speaker A: Well, let me clarify. Writing's my favorite because I'm introverted, so I can hide behind words easier. [00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot. A lot of public speakers are introverted. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Because. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Do you think you're introverted? [00:16:08] Speaker B: I don't know. I've never understood all that. I get a different result every time I take the test. So it's just like, for, like, spiritual gifts. And those personality tests, they always. It depends on the day for me, you know, I think naturally I'm better when I protect my private time. So I study kind of in a cave environment, you know, and I love it. I'm happy as a lark when it's just me and my study. And so that's probably. But I think Charles Stanley, the man that was preaching when I came to Christ, was terribly introverted and known for his public speaking. But the key to it for him, he said, people didn't talk back. So it wasn't carrying on a conversation, it was delivering a sermon that you had written. And so for him, he could shine on stage as an introvert. I think several people have landed that way. But you think of yourself as an introvert as well. [00:17:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:20] Speaker B: You said. Why do you. What brings you to that conclusion? [00:17:25] Speaker A: If you were like, jenny, you can do anything in the world right now, I'd want to go home, read a book, just be in my thoughts. [00:17:31] Speaker B: So you're philosophy, life, solitude, you kind of flourish. Yeah. So I'm the same in that regard, since I can plan those times like this or. And this. This doesn't drain me the way a Sunday would. But on Sunday, I really have to be geared up for it. Like, have my tank full and, you know, have a little caffeine, you know, go in ready for the day. And I can't do Sunday afternoon naps, like, after church. I'm. I'm kind of Wired the rest of the day, but. But, yeah, part of me would do that every day of my life because I love it. But I really do flourish, I think, more in solitude and prayer and reflection. Writing. I'm reading a biography on Samuel Clemens right now and how he kind of discovered that he moved out of. From, like, newspapers writing articles into public speaking. Totally. Not for the Lord, but just it was an entertainment thing then and flourished really, as much or more as a speaker as he did in the written word. But even in that day, they were talking about how it's rare to have two people that can. One person that can do both of those worlds. Well, yeah, you know, you kind of master one or the other, it seems. So I know you had the first opportunity to step in for the guy. When did that become a regular invitation for you? After that? Did people from that event reach out or kind of. How did the speaking become normative for you? [00:19:04] Speaker A: Yeah, some women were at that conference, and they ended up reaching out and wanting me to speak at their women's event in Canada. So just it became word of mouth at that point, and I began traveling, just speaking and teaching and things like that. So it's interesting to analyze how we are because for me, my personality, I tend to want to fall into performance mode where I'll make it like, oh, my gosh, I said the wrong thing, or over. My brain likes to overanalyze all the things. So for speaking for me has always been this challenge of, okay, God, I'm not here to perform. Like, take that away from me. I want to just teach or share what I felt like you've given me to share in this moment. So that's part of the struggle for me with speaking as opposed to writing. It feels different. [00:19:55] Speaker B: I have to intentionally think about the audience and kind of sell myself on the idea that what I've gotten out of this text would really help these people. And if I get there, and I think any. But that in itself is a sales technique. I learned that in the sales world, if you're selling a car, you have to really believe this is the best choice for this family. And if you don't believe it, you can't sell it. So in preaching, I get to that point where what I've studied in that text, I believe will make this person a happier, more joyful, peaceful Christian, that their family's going to do better, they're going to flourish in life. And if I do that, it's easier for me to forget about me and go up there for them. And that's. To me, that's when I'm in my sweet spot as a preacher with that calling. And as that's developed. When did you start? Because you have a good business sense as far as marketing goes and all of that. At what point did you go, okay, I need to probably register the domain and put an infrastructure together to make this work? When did that. Was that instant, or were you led to do that by an agent or What? [00:21:09] Speaker A: That was 2017, when courageous creative was coming out. Started doing that, and then moving, building at the same time. We were building our marketing business, and our marketing business was funding the ministry efforts. Okay, yeah, so that was happening. [00:21:24] Speaker B: So did you go on, like, a speaking circuit to get the word out about the book? [00:21:30] Speaker A: Yeah, but that also involves podcasts and just interviews wherever you can get them, radio, so things like that. So that. Yeah, that was fun. [00:21:39] Speaker B: When did you start your podcast? [00:21:42] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, my podcast Shut the should up. [00:21:46] Speaker B: I'm not telling you that. I'm telling the name of the podcast. Right. [00:21:49] Speaker A: You have to say it slow or can get real sketchy. Yeah, I started that. I think it was 2019 with a friend who's also in the Christian space. Her name's Candace Payne. I don't know if you ever saw our video that went viral with a Chewbacca mask on. Yeah, yeah. So we connected. She loved Courageous Creative and decided to endorse my book, which was such a blessing. And then from there, I was like, let's start a podcast together, because I didn't want to do it alone. So I was like. So we ended up doing that for a handful of years. We recently retired it, like a year or two ago. [00:22:22] Speaker B: Did you enjoy that? [00:22:23] Speaker A: Oh, it was so fun. She's such a fun person to hang out with. So it was just like, let's just have fun and see where the Lord takes it. [00:22:29] Speaker B: Was it like this? Was it live or was it virtual or. [00:22:31] Speaker A: She was in. She's in Texas. So we were zooming. [00:22:35] Speaker B: Did you have guests on it, or was it just kind of talking through issues, the two of you? [00:22:38] Speaker A: We did both. We would have guests on, and then we would talk through things as well. [00:22:42] Speaker B: They say, you know, I think we're on episode 28, 29, something like that. But they say the first nine are the most difficult, that it takes nine. And for whatever reason, there's normally not a tenth that most people retire from that world before their tenth episode. And so I'd kind of forgotten about that. And I looked down one day, and we're on 25, 26. And it's like, I really feel like we have a full tank to keep, keep going. I don't feel drained by it. Doug Wilson says, I do what I do for the same reasons dogs bark. They're just in their nature to do it. And so this type of platform and these type of conversations are just very native to me and I hope that it's encourages people. I'm getting good responses from it. But it's. You wonder, are we going to wake up in five years and podcasting be something nobody does anymore? You know, do you ever wonder that? Or like, what's the next thing that we're not aware of yet that people are going to use to digest information, to make decisions about their life? Are you a futurist at all? Do you think in those terms? I know you are. [00:23:56] Speaker A: In spiritual things, yeah. AI has made us all be futurists, wondering like, are they gonna. Is the world being taken over by robots and where do we fit in? [00:24:06] Speaker B: Do you see anything spiritual in all that? [00:24:09] Speaker A: I have to remind myself, well, in the writing industry, I'm like, AI writes better than I do, so I'm being taken out of a job. But I have to remind myself, okay, AI does not have a soul. It's still, they still need my words. So, yeah, I don't know, it's a hard, hard thing to process through. [00:24:27] Speaker B: If I were the enemy or the Lord, I would think that it's something I would want to get involved in for my purposes. You know, So I can see, I can see it being a tool in both, in the hands of both of the, of the parties. Let me, let's delve into some kind of not hot topic issues. But I'm interested just like in that area to see kind of where you're at on as you're getting the same news that I'm getting. And I wonder what you see as the spiritual aspect of what's going on. So if you look at, let's take the latest news out in la, where you were coming from, the riots that are taking place right now over the ICE deportations and that, where do you see God working or what do you think that? Does that mean anything or is it just the course of human history? [00:25:27] Speaker A: My gosh, loaded questions. [00:25:30] Speaker B: Well, it's sincerely not loaded where you and I might would differ on a few things. Theologically, I think that we share a very similar worldview as just people who are generally conservative, right leaning, you know, we probably make the same political type decisions. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:53] Speaker B: And so you Know, I'm seeing. I'm seeing right now. I can't decide if it's like, governmental action or live entertainment. Does that make sense? [00:26:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Because you see, you know, Trump is a showman. He knows how to put on a good show. And he sent out, you know, thousands of National Guard. He's called in the Marines, um, Gavin Newsom, that's his home turf. And he knows how to put a show on as well. And so I see two guys. I don't know if they're taking. What was that old saying? Never, never let a crisis go to waste. I don't know if they're looking at it and saying this is an opportunity or if they're creating it. [00:26:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:39] Speaker B: And stoking it. Because it. It does dominate the news cycle when it happens, you know, but you've been there. I've not lived in California. Behind the scenes. From what you saw, did you see a lot of spiritual warfare? [00:26:55] Speaker A: It was similar to any area, really. Like, I knew when I lived out there, if I wasn't involved in the church, it's going to be easy to get sucked into the worldly things. Right? I do know, like, the crisis, you were just. That's so interesting. You say entertainment. What was the other thing? Entertainment versus an actual event happening. What grieves my heart about all the. Not classified as drama, but like, all the trauma and drama and all the things that are happening in the world is that it's bringing disunity to Christians. I have a handful of Christians that are like, you're not sticking up for people. There's not unity here. How can you not love them? And then there's the others that are. It's entertainment or, I don't know, it's just causing riots within the church world is what I'm seeing. I don't know if you've seen any of that. [00:27:46] Speaker B: Well, you know, our church, I mean, it's not. They're pretty insecure. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Our church is healthy and. Yeah. [00:27:52] Speaker B: But I have, you know, on a personal level, I think that working through. Let's just say if an illegal immigrant were to visit our church, I think on a personal level, it's my responsibility to love that person, to speak truth to them, to not judge them, and I'm very comfortable doing that. But at the same time, I can't imagine a world where I wouldn't say what you did was wrong. I'm thinking my mind's going blank. Of Philemon, the book of Philemon, where Paul encounters this runaway slave but leads him to Christ loves him, disciples him, and then says, now you need to go back. To me, that seems like the Christian response to it. So some of my brothers would look at it and say, well, it's the government's responsibility to deal with that. Our responsibility is just to love them. I would go a little deeper than that, say, well, love them with truth and what's best for their walk with the Lord and the church. I've seen on the mission side of it, like in Cuba, there's a great move of God taking place in Cuba among Baptists in particular. But the best pastors are leaving the country because living in a communist environment is very, very difficult for anybody. And I don't blame them at all for wanting to get out of there. At the same time, they are the best and the brightest. They are the only pastors Cuba has. And if they leave to come to the United States, we're not desperate for new pastors here. You know, we could. We could probably better diversify our churches and move some people in the south and other places more effectively. But I'm seeing a crisis, a spiritual crisis being created in places that already have physical crisis. Does that make sense? [00:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:58] Speaker B: And so the response of the church in those scenarios, I don't think we can just say, you know, affirm, love, act like there's nothing wrong. I don't think that's a healthy position for us. You know, I think we do have to kind of speak truth in love. [00:30:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with that. [00:30:17] Speaker B: In. In the. So. So, you know, how long have we known each other? [00:30:23] Speaker A: Every five. Five years, Six years. [00:30:25] Speaker B: So you've seen some of my evolution or devolution. I'm not sure which one it is yet. Into becoming a conspiracy theorist. [00:30:35] Speaker A: Oh, God. [00:30:36] Speaker B: Okay. Ten years ago, I believed everything pretty much. I was very gullible. Today I'm on, you know, kind of. Kind of assume they're misleading me if it's coming out of mainstream media at this point. So you hear a lot of weird stuff out of Hollywood. [00:30:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:56] Speaker B: Is there. Is it true? Is there? What's happening? Are they drinking baby's blood? [00:31:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:01] Speaker B: What's going on? [00:31:03] Speaker A: Do you think I was, like, leading these moments? I have no idea. I just. [00:31:07] Speaker B: But did you heard about it? [00:31:08] Speaker A: I stay in my lane and I just don't. [00:31:11] Speaker B: But you didn't see, like a producer over there in the corner? [00:31:14] Speaker A: I mean, I definitely saw sketchy people and sketchy men being inappropriate, for sure. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Really? [00:31:20] Speaker A: Yeah. But you just. [00:31:22] Speaker B: So that was a thing like. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Casting couch Type stuff and all that? [00:31:25] Speaker A: Yeah, just. Yeah. Taking advantage of women and just inappropriate. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Do you feel like that's gotten better? [00:31:32] Speaker A: I've been out of there for so long. I. It's. I've probably gotten worse with the state of humanity. [00:31:39] Speaker B: I don't know. I think. [00:31:41] Speaker A: But the Me Too movement, I think. [00:31:43] Speaker B: For whatever it's worth, I do think that that exposure of that issue did probably at least hit the brakes on some predators that would. You know, it does seem to be a little bit safer. As a father of two girls who will probably in some fashion be in the workforce one day, I feel better than I would have, you know, that there are some serious legal repercussions to all that in the ministry space. What do you make of all of the people who've kind of bit the dust lately? [00:32:19] Speaker A: I. So there's some core values I hold in ministry. And because of when I became a Christian at 18, the church I was a part of was highly dysfunctional. I found out years later. And I think you and I have talked about this before, and sexual abuse scandal, all sorts of horrible situations. So because of that, I have, like, a zero tolerance for any type of brushing things under the rug. So in the state of the global church, I see the Lord just cleaning out the house, like calling people to deeper repentance and like, bringing holiness back. That has turned into performance in a lot of ways, or performing the gospel or saying the right things or making Christianity commercialized. So I just. I. What I'm seeing in ministry is that especially the younger generation, there's a real hunger for a genuine experience or whatever language we want to use. Encounter. Yeah, with God. So I see God doing that. [00:33:27] Speaker B: Do you wrestle with. And I'm asking you. Because I do. I wrestle with this. I. I wrestle with seeing people that the Lord used to teach me things that I found out did some really bad stuff. You know, Robert Morris is probably a good example of that. That's been difficult for me to know kind of how to process. On one hand, I mean, it sounds like he should be in jail for what he did. On the other hand, God uses people in jail, and I think God used him in some ways. I guess I'm asking from a lady's perspective and a sister's perspective, do you process that differently than I do? Is that easier for you to go, guilty, get him out of here? [00:34:18] Speaker A: 100%. [00:34:19] Speaker B: Okay. [00:34:19] Speaker A: Well, especially so with my background. Just quick context. I ended up dating the pastor's son. Turned out the pastor was sleeping with prostitutes. Now, this was the family, the Christian family that I saw lead ministry, and this was like a part of my faith formation. Years later, it turns out the son I was dating, who was also training to be a pastor, was molesting girls in the youth group. So now I had to. So my college years were me untangling my faith from Christian leaders and church. And who is Jesus, really? And why did this happen? And they're such hypocrites. And Varna released a report that the number one thing that's holding people back from the church is the hypocritical Christian. So when there's fallings or moral failures, that's not a moral failure, that's a huge sin like that you just brought up. So, yes, send him to jail. I have. There's a grace and compassion. But I think when, like, in studying the Holy Spirit and who he is in our life, there comes a point where we feel the urge to repent or be drawn into conviction and we just ignore it, right? And we compartmentalize it and we keep doing what we're doing. And I think we can have these leaders or in our own life, look and be like, how did I get here? Like, how did this blow up so horribly? And it's because when the Lord called you to repent, when you were mean to your husband, you ignored that or, you know, and it just snowballs into not responding to the still small voice of the Lord. And so, yeah, I. That's my response. [00:35:56] Speaker B: I've been fortunate with pastors, so I know my. I mean, the people who were over me and that led me and spoke into my life, I know they're not perfect, and I know that they have things that. That I could even look at and go, yeah, I probably would have done that differently. But morally, as far as I know, and I think we always kind of have to qualify that. These days, they've. They've never really disappointed me. You know, my college pastor was a man named Jeff Noblett. And Jeff was. Jeff was a super gifted. I mean, intelligent. He still is still the pastor of the church. Intelligent, great expositor. Just, you know, very, very gifted pastor. And over the years, you would hear accusations brought against him, but none of them stuck. Ultimately, he was able to keep his integrity and never got incredibly defensive about it. He just said, it's not true. His wife would always speak up for him. And so just over the course of time, I've never had to face someone who I really knew who was a hero to me or mentor in my life that that's happened with. And so I'm fortunate. It's always been people from a distance, people that you listen to their music, you know. But I do think, regardless of what, what we find out in the days ahead about all these different cases, I think it's a wake up call for ministry in general, that God's no respecter of persons. And, you know, we can't think that somehow we have a past to live in a way that the average Christian couldn't get away with, you know, so as you, as you encounter the challenges of being in ministry, writing, touring, speaking, how has that been for your family to process? Because that's where, that's how it, how it begins, you know, have you seen. Have you seen. And I, I don't know that I've watched an entire episode. I've seen clips of it on, like, Tick Tock. But have you seen Righteous Gemstones or do you know anything about it? [00:38:17] Speaker A: No. [00:38:17] Speaker B: Okay. It's about this ministry family. It's hilarious. Some of the best actors, but they're just. And it's horrible. It's immoral, it's vulgar. I'm not recommending it, but the clips I've seen are pretty hilarious. And the thing is, they're showing the absolute worst side of Christian ministry. [00:38:38] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. [00:38:39] Speaker B: So you've intrigued me, Jani. It's really like you'll go, oh, I think I know who he's portraying. You know, you've got Baby Billy. Baby Billy's like this, this charismatic pastor with a shark suit on, his hair slicked back. He nails it. Absolutely nails it. And then you've got the youth guy who's got his ripped jeans and, you know, it's like a total perfect caricature of people that we know. But I have felt like when I've watched it, at first I was like, oh, that's not fair. They're not showing, you know, they're not showing ministry as that's not fair. And I was kind of pushing back against it. And eventually I got to the point to where it was like, okay, you got to be able to look at that and say they got a point. [00:39:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:34] Speaker B: You know, the critiques against the church in that regard, not listening to that may have got us into some of the shape that we're in today. So, you know, I try to, when things come along or somebody sends me something, I'm like, okay, yep, they've got, they've got a point. We do, we do say, you know, whether it's like, you ought to be giving, you ought to be giving man, you ought to step out and trust God and then turn around and splurge and maybe ourselves, not be the most generous people. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:05] Speaker B: You know that that is a common fallacy in the ministry. So I try to look at it and go with every criticism. There's a grain of truth and there's probably more than a grain. So it's really interesting what God's doing right now across the board and just how he's cleaning house in a lot of ways. And I think. Who was it? Newsboys. Who's the latest one? [00:40:32] Speaker A: DC Talk. Newsboys. Yeah. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Yeah. The word is that. Well, they knew that at least a portion of these things were going on. But it puts you in this spot of this guy's producing. And it seems like God's using him because we equate material success with spiritual blessing. God's using him, so don't mess with him. He may leave. And then the next thing you know, he brings the whole house down. [00:41:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And you pacify his situation because he's bringing millions of dollars. [00:41:08] Speaker B: Right. And it grows the coverage, the darkness. It kind of causes that sin to grow. You know, have you ever. And I don't want you to like delve into it and say somebody's name or something, but have you ever been in those situations where you had to call somebody out? [00:41:24] Speaker A: Oh, I mean, the industry, the Christian. So I recently stepped down from an itinerant ministry and. And I would say I'm like a C or D level women's minister in regards to going to speak at conferences and things like that. And I'm just. I use that language to explain that there's like a hierarchy. Right. There's women that are always like the go to ladies that always get chosen to do the headlining conferences and they're making tens of thousands of dollars. [00:41:54] Speaker B: So I was talking to a friend of mine about, you know, who we should have on the podcast, and he mentioned this one kid who's in Christian music industry who was going to be in Jacksonville. And I said, well, I'll have my people reach out to him, see what we can work out. And he kind of laughed. He said, zach, he gets quarter of a million dollars just to show up. [00:42:17] Speaker A: For the podcast interview. Yeah, yeah. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Quarter of a million dollars just to show up. And it's like, you think you can't be shocked, but it really is a big industry. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Didn't you get the check my people sent you? Because I'm ready for that. [00:42:35] Speaker B: Oh, well, we're still doing the math. [00:42:37] Speaker A: But we'll get back with you. I'm just kidding. [00:42:39] Speaker B: I did. We do have coffee, and I think I'm giving you a copy of my book. So. [00:42:44] Speaker A: No, it's so messed up because I was doing itinerant ministry and there's like, here's a plant, and like, bless you, my daughter. And of course, I mean, it's weird because as a woman in church, there's not always a place to land, but the publishing arm of Christianity has given us a place to land. I say us generically as women, so. But there is a hierarchy of. Pay me tens of thousand for it. And there's been women that are in the A level, and they're just plagiarizing books they're stealing content from. [00:43:18] Speaker B: And that's a big problem with you. [00:43:20] Speaker A: Horrible. No, Yeah. [00:43:22] Speaker B: I mean, in general, it's a problem, but for you, that's one of your pet peeves. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Yeah. My pet peeves is don't be abusive and don't steal sermons and act them out verbatim. [00:43:31] Speaker B: Were you one of the people. I can't remember who it was. This happens probably three or four times. Who came to the church and said, I put your sermon in some kind of deal to see if you were ripping it off of somebody else. Did you honestly, did you ever do that? [00:43:45] Speaker A: Of course. [00:43:46] Speaker B: Did you really? [00:43:47] Speaker A: Yeah. No. But you and I. So before we started attending the church, so we were working together on stuff, and then you and I sat down and I just said, do you write your own sermons? And we had a whole long talk about how you did. [00:43:58] Speaker B: I remember that. [00:43:59] Speaker A: And. Yeah, and you told me some teens did that for you as well. They checked your sermon content. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we had a family that they had. They had a hard time going to church, and it was like five boys in the family. And I said, well, you know, what was the deal? Why couldn't you settle in on a church? And they said, man, the pastor got his sermons off the Internet, you know, And I think in, you know, in my maturity as a. As a guy and as a preacher there, early on, I didn't know how much to lean on other people. I really didn't know the rules of when to give credit. And so we had a situation. Thank God it was in my first church. I'd pastored, like, probably two, maybe two and a half years, and it was super busy. And I was on a sermon series on the Beatitudes, and I don't know if I heard it on the radio. I guess I could have got it on the Internet back then. But anyway, I use one of David Jeremiah's outlines and probably a couple of his illustrations out of it. Thought nothing about it. I was busy, you know, I liked his outline better than mine. And one of the young people in the church checked my work, went to his dad. His dad comes to me and says, did you plagiarize a sermon? I said, no. What are you talking about? I totally didn't have a clue what he was referring to. And he printed it out, showed me Jeremiah's stuff. I'm like, looks like I did. I said, I'll clear it up. I'll go and admit that here's my reasoning. Doesn't matter. That's not a habit I want to be in. And so, thankfully, it was really early in ministry. They were super gracious, but it taught me that that matters. It's not wrong to use someone's material, but tell them. A lot of hard work went into that. So that was a huge early on. Kind of the Lord saying, don't do that. [00:45:58] Speaker A: You know, you never told me that story. The story I was thinking of when we were talking about it, you said there were some teens that came up to you after service, and they were shocked. [00:46:07] Speaker B: And they were like, no, that happened recently. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Yeah, this was a recent one that. [00:46:11] Speaker B: Was at this church. [00:46:11] Speaker A: Yeah. They were amazed that you weren't copying sermons and that it was original material because they were trying to see if you were, like, pulling quotes from other people. They said it was original. [00:46:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Every church that they had visited failed that test, according to this college student. And it was just like, man, that must be happening a lot more than we realize, you know? [00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's hard because with. Well, I didn't know you have a background in music and production. And with my background in media and media ministry, we would download graphics all the time. There's so many great resources out there to help strengthen the church. And. But what are the boundaries around that? So I think the greatest thing ministers and pastors can do is, like, prayerfully spend time with the Lord. And, like, how does this text come alive? Because every congregation is so different. [00:47:01] Speaker B: It is. [00:47:02] Speaker A: And how. How is this going to impact my congregation? We were at a church years and years and years ago, way before you, Pastor Zach, that we found out the pastor was plagiarizing sermons for. For 10 years. I went through, like, a little spy. And it was like 10 years of verbatim, like, acting. Same exact mannerisms, acting it out. [00:47:26] Speaker B: I think Louie Giglio's probably gotten ripped off more than anybody. But, yeah, I'VE heard people tell his story. So I was in the airport the other day, tell the exact same story as if it happened to them. And you know, okay, I guess you rip off Luiglio because he's popular. But everybody's heard that that was that passion. I mean, why would you, even as a criminal, do that? [00:47:50] Speaker A: You know, it's so. It's so unethical. Like, where's the morality and the wanting to. [00:47:57] Speaker B: Well, that's. And that's a lie. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Have godly characters. Yeah, it's a lie. [00:48:01] Speaker B: Beyond it being just stealing, it's also bearing false witness. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and now you're performing. That's what it's doing. They're doing a performance. [00:48:11] Speaker B: I think also every church is different. So what your people need will be slightly different or greatly different maybe than what another church needs. But I think also people need to know if somebody comes up and says, hey, I enjoyed that sermon. The Lord really used it in my life. My kind of pat answer is, well, it took me 30 years to write it, because everything I will see things that you won't see. You'll see things I won't see that either. Angles or cross references, illustrations. Our theological positions need to be defined and those don't change. But all of the other things that go into communicating a truth, everybody who's called into that ministry has so much to bring that nobody else can bring. And that's what we want to hear. We want to hear. What do you bring to the table? If I hear. If we're at our church and Gabe Zavala's speaking or something. I don't want to hear Louie Giglio. I want to hear what Gabe's bringing to this conversation, you know, and so I think they're selling themselves short by using somebody else's life in place of their own, you know. So as you continue, you went from creative, the book on the. The creative. [00:49:36] Speaker A: Yeah, courageous. Creative was. [00:49:38] Speaker B: Courageous book. The green one. [00:49:40] Speaker A: No, that was my mo. My other one. Flash theology. No. Okay. Courageous, creative, and then getting voice. Getting, oh, God's voice. Okay, maybe that one. And then Dream Come True was my third. And then flash theology I co wrote with my brother in law, who's a pastor in California. [00:49:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:49:57] Speaker A: And now the Promise Presence, which was my first official women's Bible study through Luke. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Really? [00:50:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:04] Speaker B: So having all those kind of behind you, has your creative process changed? Like how does, how do you go from concept? Do you outline it? How does it progress? [00:50:18] Speaker A: So I don't. Okay. This book actually was birthed From a conversation you and I had. [00:50:24] Speaker B: Well, you had mentioned that remind me of the conversation. [00:50:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So I know you're busy pastoring all the people. I don't know why you don't remember this. Amazing. I'm just kidding. Okay. So oftentimes when I come back from ministry events, you and I would just shoot you texts and we debrief. And this. I came back from a women's retreat, and it was probably the most profound ministry event I had ever been at. And I remember this is when a. [00:50:49] Speaker B: Lot of kind of supernatural things happened, right? [00:50:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the first. [00:50:54] Speaker B: I remember the conversation. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the first time. So we were praying over a woman, and I felt as if the Lord was like, ask her if she's being tormented at night. So I just asked her. I would now describe that as a word of knowledge, which is, I'm a continuationist. If we haven't said so, I believe the gift still exists today. So I asked her, have you been tormented? And she said, I haven't slept good, like, my whole entire life. I have never been able to sleep through the night. And it was because there was a lot of things in her childhood and just a lot of trauma. So we began to pray, and it turned out that she was being oppressed. And she was like, I just feel like I need greater freedom. So the leader and I gave her some things to pray through on her own. Like, prayerfully consider if you need to forgive anybody. Like, walk through these steps, and we'll meet later this night, and we'll. We'll be, like, ready to pray. And my friend and I sat in the bathroom, like, oh, my gosh. Like, feeling, like, this tension of, like, I feel like we have to cast out a demon, and we've never done that before. So we were texting all our, like, really super Pentecostal friends. Like, what do we do? Oh, my gosh, what's happening? And my one friend, Pastor Mark, was like, you. You know what to do. This is biblical. Just, like, in the name of Jesus, come out. So it took three hours, but I'm laughing because I still feel uncomfortable about the situation. And that's fine. We'll do it. But we were praying, and it was so interesting because her voice would just go mute and she would, like, stop talking. And, like, she couldn't even. You could feel the struggle that she was in. And then eventually something shifted. Like, you could even see the darkness in her eyes. Over time, though, something shifted, and you could feel, like, the peace of God and her eyes, like, Totally looked like. I don't know how to explain it other than the peace of God was resting upon her. So that was such a profound moment where the Lord was ministering freedom in a way I'd never experienced, and to be, like, leading that. So anyways, you and I were talking about this, and I was like, I don't know what to do with all this, and I want to study demonization, and I want to study, like, what it actually means that we're in a spiritual warfare. And as you and I were talking, you gave a very pastoral warning, which is like, jenny, your kids are so young. And do you remember this? You're like, your kids are so young. I think you should be really careful about diving into this right now. Do you want to expand on why you said that or. [00:53:22] Speaker B: I don't remember. [00:53:22] Speaker A: Okay. I didn't know if it would trigger. You were just concerned that there would be such a spiritual warfare and, like, attack from the enemy if I start, like, highlighting his work. So I took that warning and I was like, yeah. Because my kids at the time. This was three years ago. Three or four years ago. I started praying about it. And I was like, yeah, I don't want to, like, open up Pandora's box. So as I was praying, I felt like prompting from the Lord, like, what's the greater conversation here? Because it's not being freed from demons. It's the power of God. So in that and, like, processing through that, I was like, oh, I want to write about. I want to really understand the power and authority Christ followers have through the power of the Holy Spirit and his indwelling presence. And what does that actually look like? So naturally, Luke Acts was a place to. To land on that concept. [00:54:09] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome. [00:54:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:10] Speaker B: Well, yeah. [00:54:11] Speaker A: So thanks for your wisdom. Even though. [00:54:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:13] Speaker A: That you blocked it out. It's fine. [00:54:14] Speaker B: No, no. It's like, you know, we've gone through those things, and I think probably when it comes to things like spiritual gifts and all of that, we're on paper at least pretty similar, if not identical. I'm a continuationist as well. For people who don't know that, that means there's a. There's a school of thought from some people that I love and respect that would say that the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit ended with the Book of Acts, basically. And now our experience of God is more like maybe what Abraham experienced, where the supernatural is not to be expected. It's more the providential workings of God. Is that fair? A simple explanation. And I'VE always been scripture first and hermeneutically looking at the text, I don't see the gifts ending in the text practically. I can look at church history and say, yeah, there's been different times where they've been more pronounced than others. But I'm hard pressed to find somebody, Spurgeon comes to mind that experienced moments in the middle of a sermon when he would stop and have a word that he gave to an individual that was remarkably accurate. And so. [00:55:38] Speaker A: And Spurgeon was Baptist. [00:55:40] Speaker B: He was Baptist. I don't know that they had the continuous continuation conversation back then the way we do now, but yeah, so. And, you know, same with Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, the people that I'd always saw as sort of my heroes of the. The faith, extra biblical people. They've all had these experiences and I think probably something that might be helpful for the people watching another one of your books. Does this book speak most directly to that? [00:56:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:18] Speaker B: Or did the Voice of God book. [00:56:19] Speaker A: Getting all God's voice was like talking how we can hear God and what that's like. Obviously God, like the Bible is the most clearest way we hear God and everything God will do or like the still small voice of the Holy Spirit will always coincide and align with scripture and God's character. So it was more walking through that actual process of hearing God. So I would say, this is like the second step. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So in that whole process, I've had brothers and sisters in Christ who would be cessationists. The gifts cease, that they're hard on it. They say, you know, I don't believe any of this stuff. When you say that God told you something or whatever, I don't buy any of it. And I'm like, but do you feel like God called you into the ministry? And they'll say, yeah. Do you feel like you would be sinning if you didn't obey that? Yeah. Why? What do you call that? You call it a call? It's a word. This is the Holy Spirit. And they would put that. They would put that in a different category. That to me, they have to kind of jump through some hoops to get there. But they would put that in a category of him taking the written word and using it for a practical need. And that happens a lot. But there are a few things in life that were not in scripture. You know, marrying Julie, my call in the ministry, other lesser things. But I know at the same time there was so much God's command on my life that I would be disobeying him if I didn't heed that word. And so distinguishing, because there are things that you go, I'm not sure if this is God or not. [00:58:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:58:08] Speaker B: And so distinguishing whether it's a prompting of the Holy Spirit, a direct word from the Lord, or whether it's more our passions at work within us, saying, I really want to write this book. I really want to go on that trip. That's not always easy to distinguish. And is that what you were writing to in the previous book? [00:58:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And the discernment too. Like I think we, I think we can over complicate walking with God and want to. And it can paralyze us to even taking any movement at all when we need to trust that as Christ followers. It says in Romans 8, God the holy Spirit indwells us. And what does that mean? He's our guide, he's our counselor, he's our helper. So if, if our heart is set on Christ, my hope is that I'll be aligned and walking out his will and his ways. And then the reminder is that part of that's discernment and understanding how he's leading. So taking the step when he asks us to do that is important. But sometimes we'll over dramatize that to be like, oh, I don't know, I don't want to walk out of his will and he'll call us back even if we mess it up. There's been times where I felt like there's so many projects I want to do, but I end up doing the wrong thing or speeding ahead before I actually should have done it. But I'll feel that urgency to come back to God and realign. So it's almost like pressure's off. [00:59:40] Speaker B: Yeah. One of the things that is helpful for me, and I think a lot of the people that I've hopefully influenced in discipleship is you really have to develop multiple categories. So you've got black ink on white paper. That is the irrefutable, authoritative word of God. That's non negotiable, thus saith the Lord. Then you've got the category of wisdom, where God says, I'm going to tell you how things work, principles, precepts, and this is just kind of how I've designed things to operate. Probably in the decisions the average Christian makes in a day, there aren't that many that are just black and white sin issues. Maybe. Maybe I have to decide, do I lie here or not lie here, you know, whatever it might be, you know, stealing, maybe someone's tempted to steal. And they can go, well, the Bible says I shouldn't do that. Of course, that's helpful. But most of the decisions that we make in a day are in that wisdom category. Another category, there are multiple wise decisions that you could make that would be in keeping with the truth, you know, in getting married, I think is a good example. You may have, as a guy, you may have multiple young ladies that are believers in Jesus Christ. They would be equally yoked together, you know, and then wisdom might tell you, okay, one of these. One of these ladies would be culturally a better fit, or we have the same ambitions, whatever it might be. So wisdom would tell me, maybe that's the one I need to pursue. But then you've got to leave room for that. That word where the Holy Spirit just says, you know, this is the way. Walk ye in it. You know, you may not even understand how all this works out. It's always going to be in keeping with the word, but why should I take this job and not that job? Sometimes those things are not vividly clear. I had two opportunities when I moved to Florida, one in Sarasota and one in here. They were relatively equal in all the benefits, the opportunity, all those things. But to say go left and not right, that really has to be something pretty supernatural. [01:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:23] Speaker B: And some people have a gift in that. And I think that's where someone like yourself, that. That seems to be one of the areas where you operate. Have you ever got it wrong? [01:02:38] Speaker A: I think we all do. [01:02:41] Speaker B: How would you reconcile that? Like, in the Old Testament, the prophets get it wrong, they die. So New Testament, I've got an explanation for it, but I'm just curious what yours is, or if you've. [01:02:52] Speaker A: Are you asking, like, have you ever. [01:02:55] Speaker B: Said, hey, I feel like I'm supposed to tell you, buy the red car. [01:02:59] Speaker A: Okay, so you're saying, have you ever felt the gift, the Lord ministering the gift of prophecy, and it was wrong? Is that what you're asking? Yeah. [01:03:09] Speaker B: Do you qualify when you. When you share something or. [01:03:14] Speaker A: So, yeah. This is interesting. So the Lord has ministered prophecy through me a lot. And. And I'll say, well, it depends who the audience is, who I'm catering to, like if they understand that language or not. So I'll just say, hey, I feel like I have some encouragement for you. Do you want to hear it? Most of the times they always say yes. They've never said no. And then I'll share it. There's times that I've missed it, or people haven't responded like, for example, if I'm at a church service and they allow me to minister, I'll do. We'll do, like, worship and, like, prayer time. And like, sometimes the gift. The Lord will operate in that way. For example. Oh, I feel like somebody. This is gonna just. I don't know if this is too. Too charismatic in this moment. I feel like somebody in this room has an ear pain. And if God's highlighting that, why don't we just pray for healing over it? And then sometimes people won't respond. Sometimes they will come up later and be like, oh, that was for me. But it's just a weird environment. Embarrassing or whatever. Yeah, it's totally embarrassing. And if people aren't used to that. So that was hard with an itinerant ministry. But of course I've missed it because I'm a human and I always try to take it to the Lord and be like, gosh, like. Like, it makes me not want to operate in the giftings at all. On if we're being honest because there's such a weight to it. And every time I feel there is a word from the Lord, I try to write it down. I try to talk to somebody about it after. If I. If I do miss it, especially, like, how did I. What went wrong here with the lines of connection with God and, like, why. [01:04:55] Speaker B: That honesty is very helpful. [01:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there needs to be a humility in all the gifts and a seriousness. It's very serious. It is to stamp a label of God has said this. [01:05:09] Speaker B: Best case scenario. It happens in the context of a congregation that knows each other. I think that's what makes it difficult for the itinerant speaker. But there are people in our congregation that we would look at. And if he came up and said, God put something on his heart related to me, then I'm going to, at the very least take that seriously and go have a talk with the Lord about it. There are other people. They get those every 20 minutes. And it really doesn't. [01:05:42] Speaker A: There's the crazy prophets as well. [01:05:44] Speaker B: Yeah, there are. One gentleman told me this, and it's been helpful. He said, now we see as in a glass, dimly. And he said, so what I'm giving you, it may not be for you, it may be for the congregation, it may be for something that you lead, but what I'm giving you is what I have. And so he would qualify it. Well, in that. Yeah. You know, I'm not the perfect direct line in the Old Testament sense or the apostolic sense that every word that I Say is verbatim without any kind of interruption from the Lord. That's not what I think happens today. In the same sense, like there's not a book of Ginny that needs to. To be written down. Would you agree with that? [01:06:38] Speaker A: 100%. Yeah. [01:06:39] Speaker B: And the level of authority of it, if the Lord puts something on your heart, you're not necessarily seeking it, but God gives you a word and you share that with me. It's a different level of authority than if the apostle Paul walked in and said, thus saith the Lord. And that's part of. That's just office, right? [01:07:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:02] Speaker B: But at the same time, could that happen? Does that happen? It has happened. We've. We've experienced that where you've said things that were. That were. We took it very seriously, you know, made. Made some big decisions because of things that, that you. An impression that you had. Now, it's. It's important to know who you're talking to. As I said earlier. And it never, never can violate God's revealed will in the text. It must align with it. His character. It must not violate his character. But. But where I'm at, and again, I know good people that are different, is that that door is open. You know, I would say, I think the term that, that we've used before is charismatic with seat belts. [01:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:54] Speaker B: You know, so my seatbelt's pretty tight. [01:07:58] Speaker A: You're baptistal. [01:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah. But I'll tell you something that you. That you shared with me, or, I don't know if you challenged me or just asked me, but several years ago you said, do you have a prayer team? [01:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:11] Speaker B: And I had heard of that. You hear of that more in charismatic circles than you do in reformed circles. But you said, do you. Do you have a group of people that kind of know what's going on in your world that you can share private prayer requests with and you know that they're going to pray. And I didn't. And I began to just kind of think through it. Who would I put in that? And God raised up a couple in our church. I'll introduce you to them. That I knew if anybody could lead that, that they were equipped to lead it. They had done it before. And so I had a conversation with them, and they brought several names. They said, these are the people that we feel like should be on this team. I gave them a couple more, and they've put the team together. We have a very secure app that I'll shoot them a text and say, pray over this. And I know they're Gonna pray and I know they're not gonna put it on Facebook. [01:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:07] Speaker B: You know, and those two things are super important. And now those people, when they come and they say the Lord impressed me with something, I listen to that because they know what's going on in my world and I know what's going on in their world. And there's a level of trust there that has, you know, that comes into that conversation. [01:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah, there's relational equity. [01:09:29] Speaker B: Right? [01:09:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a huge part. So. Oh man, so many things. The Holy Spirit is a gift who has given gifts. And this is the continuation of theology. And when we're talking about the gift of prophecy, just as you can prophesy over me, the Holy Spirit indwells me and gives me discernment to decide if I should receive that or not. And I think that's a huge part that has been missing in the conversation of the gifts. Because a lot of times, for example, the prophet just bulldozes in and it's like, well, no, it's not Old Testament prophecy. This is the New Testament where the Holy Spirit indwells all of the followers. [01:10:08] Speaker B: And the enemy counterfeits gifts. [01:10:12] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. [01:10:13] Speaker B: It's like we said about AI earlier, if I were the enemy, I would want in on that, you know, and it's so with something like where people are randomly going to go up and say that God told them something. Well, yeah, the enemy might want to get involved in that as well. [01:10:26] Speaker A: And does and twist it. Yeah. Well, even, I mean, I saw we have a psychic on the island where we live and I'm just like so offended by him. [01:10:33] Speaker B: Oh, we've got a few. [01:10:34] Speaker A: Why are you doing that? Like just go to church and anyways, the gifts are for the stranger. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Did you hear about the psychic that got kicked out of their place they were renting? No, they never saw it coming. [01:10:50] Speaker A: Zing. [01:10:52] Speaker B: Had to work it in. [01:10:54] Speaker A: I hear Julie laughing over there. She's like, I'm used to this. I really thought so. I was like, oh, good, they got kicked out. [01:11:01] Speaker B: But how many people have made this massive life altering decisions because of something a psychic said? [01:11:09] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. [01:11:10] Speaker B: And then it would be very tempting, I would think, for the enemy to say, look, I can sow some of that in the church. So distinguishing. You've got to know the canon of scripture, what has God said? And you've got to know the person. [01:11:28] Speaker A: Who'S sharing it with integrity. And it's so important to be involved in the local church. Like I Always say, because part of what I do for work is I teach people about the gifts and like train them. And I'm like, you have to go have a conversation. Ask your pastor, like, where do what do we believe in the gifts? And then of course, if you get a life changing word or something, you bring that to your Bible study leader or your pastoral counsel and you say, hey, can you help me discern this? Because we're not in it alone. We're supposed to be like walking inside one another. Yeah. So I love talking about the gifts of the spirit because different denominations sometimes miss it all together. Some over spiritualize or misuse the gifts. [01:12:12] Speaker B: I'm cautious, as you know, about some of these things. So if a Presbyterian tells me they have a word, I take it a lot more serious than if the assembly of God, because they don't get many words like they, if they say God spoke to them. I had probably the most non charismatic person I've ever known who had a just radical vision that was very important at one stage of my ministry. And it was kind of like, man, he's as charismatic as a rock. You know, he's, he's, there's doesn't, he doesn't talk that way. And literally I wish I'd say the text because it was unbelievable and his wife witnessed it and it's just like, okay, for that to happen to him, then I've got to at least pump the brakes and go, that might be God, you know, Whereas if it happened to my worship leader buddy, that he gets these between every song, then yeah, it just sounded like a good idea more than a word. But whatever. But so, yeah, I think, I think honesty in those things to say, I don't buy it all. [01:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:24] Speaker B: You know, is important and to have a little bit of healthy skepticism if somebody says they've got a word. But knowing that person kind of gives you the level of okay, she's, she's been faithful. And I can say this for you. Having known you for these years, you've earned that trust for me to where I sincerely believe that you love Jesus, that you believe every word of scripture, that you're doing your best to obey him with your life. And so, yeah, if a friend like you comes up and I don't think you're against me, I think you're for me. And the same is true. I'm not against you, I'm for you. So if I come up and I say something, hopefully there would be some credibility there. For that reason, you know, anything really exciting to you, right now you see God doing broadly. [01:14:25] Speaker A: Oh, in, in my life or just. [01:14:27] Speaker B: In ministry in the world. [01:14:32] Speaker A: I, I see my family, my kids, my family in the church, like globally. I just see people, and I already mentioned this, but I see them really wanting the authenticity of what it looks like to be a Christian and not putting on a show, not, you know, making a performance or fake. So I just see a return to the genuine, genuine Jesus. I don't, I don't know what other way to put that, but there was this quote that I read in seminary. I can't remember the book, Fabricating Jesus. Have you read it? I'm not sure. I can't remember the person, the author's theological leanings. But he said a Jesus distorted is a Jesus diminished, something along those lines. And that really stuck out to me because Jesus was a miracle worker. And I don't ever, in my own life, in ministry, I don't want to ever distort that message that he was a miracle worker. So whether or not, like a listener believes in the gift, at the end of the day, do you believe in a miraculous God? Because I found I call it the ministry of desperation. When we're desperate, we have no other option. But other than being like God, I have nothing left. Are you going to show up here? We'll always like chase that miracle. So I want to be open to whatever that looks like for this season of life. [01:15:56] Speaker B: What do you do? Let me see how I can do this. And I don't mean to put you on the spot at all. Do you speak in tongues? [01:16:06] Speaker A: Yes. [01:16:07] Speaker B: Okay. Have you ever witnessed people say if you don't speak in tongues and you're probably not a Christian? [01:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's been taken from the classic Pentecostal. Classic Pentecostal viewpoint. Yeah. Which I disagree with. [01:16:20] Speaker B: Let the record show most, most assembly of God's most charismatic churches, even today, would not hold to that. But you've seen that misused. You know what I'm referring to. [01:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:30] Speaker B: If we wrap this up and say, okay, we want to see Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever, we want to see the gifts at work, there's a sense in which somebody I would presume would feel like, if that doesn't happen to me, what's wrong? And very sincere hearted people that are following Jesus, that maybe it's happening to them, they don't know how to distinguish it. Maybe God has gifted them in a very different way. And walking out and just kind of feeling like man, Pastor Zach and Jenny, they were talking about this stuff. And you know, if I'm not seeing that stuff happening, it's been a week, I haven't seen any of this stuff happening and I believe it. So what's going on? I want to give. This is my take. You don't have to agree with it, but this is my take. While I do believe in the continuation of the gifts, I do think there's a temptation for us to make them more normative than there actually are. So when you look at scripture as a whole, you see like these four epochs when God was manifesting and working in very unique ways. You know, in the creation they got words from God every day. In Genesis we're studying right now, you see it during like the time of Noah. You see it during the time of the, of like Elijah and Elisha, Moses, the Exodus, when God was parting the Red Sea. And I think that it's. A good and faithful Christian can read that and go, God can part the sea, but not really bank on it. How do you respond to that? Like, we go up to the river today. I believe with everything in me, the Intracoastal Waterway, God could split it wide open. I probably wouldn't plan my life around him doing that unless I got just some kind of Moses like word burning bush experience. But in Moses Day that wasn't the norm. I think it shocked everybody that God did that. Didn't mean he couldn't do it. He did it again later with a river. Right. So he can do these things and recognizing that those massive, you know, history making moments, they're shocking for a reason. And it's because they're not the norm. Yeah, they're not happening every time you turn around. And then going into the New Testament, I do think we have to recognize that the launching of the early church was a unique time in human history. And so I do think I've got some very sincere brothers and sisters in Christ that passionately wants the real deal, that passionately want to see a revival and see God move at the same time. If it's not Pentecost, they leave a little disappointed. And I think Pentecost was a very unique time. And you see what happened, what three kind of outpourings there early in Acts that are unique, that I don't think you have to leave church and go, man, if that doesn't happen, somebody's in sin. Who's in sin? Because I think you're doing the same thing as if saying to the person who doesn't have the gift of tongues. Yeah, you must be doing something wrong. I think we can do the same thing to the bride of Christ if we hold her to say, yeah, you've got to produce that kind of movement every Lord's day. Or I'm going to leave frustrated and, you know, thinking maybe I did something wrong and you did something wrong. [01:20:33] Speaker A: Right. [01:20:34] Speaker B: Do you see that at all? Or is that just kind of a contextual thing for us? [01:20:40] Speaker A: My husband was raised Baptist, and I've had a lot of conversations with his family, and they express similar viewpoints. And I end too, with the interdenominational work we do. So. And you and I texted through this. But every denomination believes in the baptism of the Spirit. It's just different. And so they believe Pentecost was a real event. And how that translates denominationally is different across the board. So when you're talking about, like the miraculous event of partying the waters or even recreating Pentecost, I don't think that's something we should pursue. But I do feel strongly that Paul writes in First Corinthians 12, 13, 14 that he God has given us gifts to strengthen the church. [01:21:27] Speaker B: Totally. [01:21:27] Speaker A: That's the whole point. [01:21:29] Speaker B: He gave us some parameters, how to use them. [01:21:30] Speaker A: Yeah. He gave us boundaries. It's very clear. Yeah. So I'm not like my whole prayerful goal isn't, let's chase Pentecost. Although that was a power that was poured out, I think we can receive that. Although he's already indwelling within, there does need to be a conscious awareness that God is powerful. Just like we're talking about God is miraculous. And within that awareness, a lot of the times, whether we call it being baptized with the Spirit or have a filling of the Spirit or that can happen at. It's not clear in Scripture. It can happen at salvation or a separate occurrence. A lot of the times receiving that gift will be manifested. So I think classic Pentecostal theology says it has to be a separate occurrence. It's like the second blessing, where you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues will always follow. So that's what you mentioned earlier that got twisted into, you're not saved unless you speak in tongues, which we both disagree with. And I don't think too, in receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit or receiving the Spirit, I don't think that tongues always follows. In one instance in Acts, it's prophecy, the person prophesied. So in understanding, I don't think we should pursue splitting the waters or recreating Pentecost, but we should pursue asking The Lord, what is my gift and what does that look like for our church? [01:22:53] Speaker B: Totally agree. I agree. In corporate worship, agree personally that I want to walk in the fullness of God's spirit. And if there are supernatural manifestations of that, I want those to be fully experienced in my life personally. So that said, at the same time, I think that the consumeristic nature of our people in that another person might look at it this way and go, yeah, man, worship was great today, but they didn't hit the budget. That's their bottom line. They're looking at the giving. And then somebody else might say, yeah, we hit the budget, but numbers were down. Or you know, numbers were up, we hit the budget, nobody got saved. There's always something that we can look at and say kind of overemphasize to the neglect of the other bottom. We've got multiple bottom lines here we're thinking about. So when it comes down to a pastor that's evaluating, is God happy with our church? That's a very important question to me. I want him to look at our Lord's day worship and, and our church scattered and go, you know, I'm pleased with him. This is Philadelphia, this is not Laodicea. I want him to smile upon us. And so in evaluating that, I think there's a danger in the charismatic movement of going, man, nobody got slain in the spirit. I don't care who got. Salvation is the ultimate miracle. [01:24:31] Speaker A: Yeah, amen. I agree. [01:24:32] Speaker B: And knowing that and saying seven year old kid gave his life to Jesus, you know, because the fact is, if you get, if somebody lays hands on you and you fall down when you get up, you gotta trust Jesus and obey what the word of God says, or that means nothing. Yeah, that's a work of the flesh. If you do not walk with the Lord when you get up. All of that was just an experience emotionally or whatever it was. So, you know, I want our people to look at it and say where I think that we can help is to say, this is a category because some of us look at just, hey, did anybody get saved? What was the attendance? What was the giving? It was a good day. Well, not if God had things he wanted to accomplish that weren't accomplished, you know. So I think for, for the tribe that I operate in, I think to look at it and say, yeah, you need to have a category that says God still, God is alive and well. God wants to engage with his people and work wonders at times. You've got to give space for that. And if that's not Happening on any level, you've got to be concerned about it. If the gifts are not in some way manifesting themselves in your congregation, that's a problem. But how much and how do you measure that? That's hard. That's hard to do. And I think it's a lot easier just to say Pentecost or nothing. [01:25:58] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Or. Yeah. And I think part of what I feel called to do is like, open up the conversation, right. And like, across all denominations and bring it into this middle ground of, like, bring it into this middle. Sorry, I touched the mic twice. [01:26:13] Speaker B: Oh, that's okay. [01:26:14] Speaker A: Part of what I feel called to do is bring in the conversation to this middle ground of no expression at all, no experience and over experience and spiritual manipulation and like, just these. Ah. So even in, like, having a heart, to have this discussion is so huge and important. And yeah, I. I agree with what you're saying though, because some, in some expressions of faith, people get. Begin to worship the gifts instead of the. The giver of the gifts. And instead of worshiping Jesus and we. There's a pursuit of, oh, I got to get the next word or I got to pray for. For go to the hospitals and pray. Which is great and wonderful things. But also, are you walking with godly integrity and character? Are you submitted under a pastoral leadership? Like, what does this look like in our lives holistically as a whole person? That's the key. Physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally. [01:27:04] Speaker B: I think Vance Havner said, blessed are the balanced. Being able to take hold of one without letting go of the other is hard for people to do, period. But so important for a healthy church and for a healthy Christian. You know, if people want to go buy your books, learn more about what you are doing in the kingdom, where could they follow you and find out more? [01:27:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Jenny randall.com. there's info on my books. This is actually the first time I recorded Bible study curriculum with it. So you would have laughed at how horrible I was on the teleprompter. I need all your advice. [01:27:37] Speaker B: I hate teleprompters. [01:27:38] Speaker A: They're like, act natural. But read this script you wrote. And I'm like, but the editing did wonders for it. So I can promise you the video curriculum is great. [01:27:48] Speaker B: They can download that. [01:27:49] Speaker A: Yeah, they get it for free when they get the book. It's great for women's studies and things like that. [01:27:53] Speaker B: So it's made for group context. Yeah. [01:27:55] Speaker A: Group or individual usage. It is a continuationist theology, but I try to teach both points. They can land where they want to land. [01:28:02] Speaker B: Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you for joining me today. [01:28:04] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. [01:28:06] Speaker B: Sa.