What do Christian Nationalism, J.D. Greear, and Hindu Idols have in common?

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Would. Would they call him a Christian? Of course they would. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Of course they would. And I, and I, and I don't hate the term. I don't know what is necessarily what definition you're working from. [00:00:15] Speaker A: It's not scriptural. [00:00:17] Speaker B: No, no. But. But I think we talked about last time we were together. You said something that I've just haunted me in a good way. And you said something like, always watch the descriptors. Watch for those words that are used. It's not just justice, it's social justice. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:00:38] Speaker B: And you said that's typically a way to smuggle in a leftist ideology. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Correct. [00:00:44] Speaker B: So that I've thought about that about every day since the last time we talked. And when it comes to Christian nationalists, which word is describing the other? Is it that we're a certain type of Christian or we're a certain type of nationalist, or is it some combination of the both? You understand what I mean? [00:01:04] Speaker A: No, you're 100% right. And as I said when I wrote that post, the dead giveaway on any of these little, you know, crypto Marxist linguistic tricks is that they can't define it. So what is the definition of a Christian nationalist? [00:01:21] Speaker B: Hey, I am very excited about this episode of Code Red. We're having one of our famous Coffee and Covid episodes with attorney and author Jeff Childers. Jeff and I are going to talk about some things that are happening across the country at the intersection of where Christianity and culture began to overlap, sometimes peacefully, sometimes not so peacefully. But you will enjoy this episode. Help us out, share the episode, leave us a comment, leave a review, invite other people to join you and make this episode of Code Red the best one yet. Welcome to Code Red Talk. All right, Jeff Childers, welcome back. Back. This is our third, I think coffee and Covid episode that we've. We've done together. And we're going to jump right in before my battery dies on my laptop here. [00:02:26] Speaker A: Go for it. [00:02:27] Speaker B: J.D. greer, did you know J.D. before this episode? Do you know that name? [00:02:30] Speaker A: I know of him, sure. [00:02:31] Speaker B: So, Summit Church up in North Carolina, very influential SBC church. One time president of the Southern Baptist Convention. JD Historically has been a fake faithful man, a preacher. I've learned a lot from JD he's been very aggressive in missions and planted churches all over the United States, all over the world. And lately he has been speaking out against people, really from the right who are taking positions politically or in cultural areas. And so I responded to a video that he put out. And so we have the video. If it will play, let's make sure audio is good if it will play here. Let's watch that. [00:03:18] Speaker C: Did you know it is possible to speak accurately and courageously on every single cultural and theological issue and still fail in the mission of Jesus? I say that because Jesus gave his apostles a mission that is larger than and goes beyond mere culture war, he called us to be gospel witnesses. Now hear me, that is not less than speaking the truth about cultural issues, but it is more. You see, if one temptation is failing to speak the truth, then the other temptation is to speak the truth without primarily being concerned with winning the soul of your neighbor. In everyday revolutionary, we'll look at what faithful gospel witness looks like. It's a holistic witness that's filled with grace and truth. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Okay, so in other words, speak the truth, but not too much of the truth. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Yeah, just a part that'll get them saved. Let's just do the saving part of the truth. [00:04:14] Speaker A: Stop short of anything that might convict them. [00:04:17] Speaker B: In theory, I understand. I think the idea that as Christians, we believe that if the world is going to change for the better and people are going to come closer to the Lord, that it has to start through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. In theory, I believe, and I agree with him in that I think where there's a disconnect is through which Jesus Christ we're speaking of. And if the Jesus Christ we're speaking of is the one who is sovereign lord over every single aspect of creation and life, then there's nothing that's off limits. There's nothing of which we can't bring the mind of Christ to bear, whether that's a political concern or whether that's a cultural ideology, whatever it may be. Does that make sense? [00:05:08] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, using my lawyer's brain, I have never understood making the distinction between evangelizing someone, which is talking to them about the gospel, and for a lot of secular people, that makes them deeply uncomfortable. Sure, Right. They don't want to hear about Jesus. They don't even want to hear that name. But that's okay. That's what we're supposed to do. Right. We've been commanded to. And that makes people uncomfortable. But then everything else that makes people uncomfortable, we're not supposed to say, because. [00:05:39] Speaker B: That'S not loving your neighbor. Well, that's the way that it's being framed. [00:05:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that one commandment, you know, to love thy neighbor as yourself has been weaponized totally. And that's a problem. You know, people are Christians, J.D. greer, are using that. They used it during the pandemic to manipulate other Christians into doing what they want and what they think is the right thing to do. [00:06:09] Speaker B: The same phrases, okay, 20 years ago, if you said, you know, we really ought to love our neighbor, and that may mean there's certain things we do or don't do because we love our neighbor, could totally sanction that. Agree with that. Something changed in 2020, as you well know, that many of these thoughts and verses even were commandeered by the left to forward an agenda. And so what JD Is saying in a vacuum, I agree with. But in this particular cultural climate is it's very, it's a hiding place. The gospel becomes a hiding place for someone who is either cowardly or deceptive to get behind. I'm just going to preach the saving grace of Jesus and I'm not going to tell you the whole counsel of God, what he believes about, you know, any number of things. And so my perspective was in my response to JD on X was that 2020 made it impossible for people to hide behind that anymore. So we had to say both the pew, the people in the pews, and the lost world that's listening demanded that we say, here's where we are on lockdowns, here's where we're at on George Floyd, here's where we're at on Trump, here's where we're that demand. But the reason they did that is because any number of, a great number of people declared themselves to be gospel centered, gospel preaching people, but were harboring a worldview that was out of alignment from most of the people in their churches. And so when that was exposed in 2020 and everyone looks up and says, oh wow, my pastor sees the world completely different than the way I do. It meant that before they would go to a new church, they want to know, where are you at on these things? And pastors like myself have had to say the same things we talk about around the fire pit with our buddies we've got to talk about in the pulpit with our churches. And that's good is what I'm suggesting. There's nothing wrong with that. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say it might even be worse than what you just described in terms of being fake. Right. So what you're just saying being fake in the fire pit, you're yourself and you talk about what you really think. And then when you're in the pulpit, you pretend to be somebody else. Some neutral, nonpartisan, above it all, inhuman, robotic type of person that can separate out all these worldly issues from your interpretation of scripture. But let's go back in time to 2021. In the summer of 2021, the vaccine hysteria was just getting started. And that was when preachers started saying, love your neighbor and go get the shot. And they were saying it from the pulpit. There's nothing in the Bible about vaccines. No, that is not so disingenuous. That is not religious. It's medical. They were given medical advice from the pulpit. They didn't have any problem with that in 2021. [00:09:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:28] Speaker A: Now, wait, it gets better. So that's when I felt convicted and compelled by the Holy Spirit. And, I mean, I could tell you that whole story. It's a wild story, But I was overcome. And I sat down, and in one night, I typed out a whole. It was initially a PowerPoint presentation, and then I was delivering it to 50 North Central Florida Baptist preachers, and I turned it into a letter to pastors. And in part, now there was more. But in part, I had a Cleveland Clinic study, which was one of the first ones to come out. The Cleveland Clinic is the gold standard of medical studies, and they had done a study on their healthcare workers who had all gotten the shots in January. And what they found statistically is that the ones that got the shots were slightly more likely to get Covid again. [00:10:25] Speaker B: Wow. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Even though they had the shot. And what that meant is that they could transmit it to others. So in my letter to the pastors, I said, pastors, you got to stop telling people that they have a spiritual duty, that they're commanded by Jesus to love their neighbor, to get the shot, to protect grandma, because the shot doesn't work like that. It doesn't stop transmission. You can still get the shot and still give it to somebody. So it doesn't love your neighbor to engage with the risk of a vaccine injury. Right. Take one for the team. [00:11:01] Speaker B: It's the opposite of loving your neighbor. It's putting them at risk. It's a dangerous thing. And what we know now is the reason so many pastors seem to be speaking with one voice on that issue is that there were big pharma. [00:11:17] Speaker A: They were getting money, a lot of money behind that, which makes it even worse now. [00:11:22] Speaker B: And that's not loving your neighbor. [00:11:24] Speaker A: Listen, so here's the icing now that they realize now nobody disputes the fact that the shots don't stop transmission anymore. So those pastors were spreading a false word when they did it. Where's the repentance? Where's the engagement with their congregation? Listen, I gave you the wrong advice. [00:11:48] Speaker B: The way it's being framed. And I don't want to say specifically JD Because I don't know that he did it this way, even though I think he did. The way he's being framed is. All we did was ask you to wear a mask for your neighbor's sake. The problem was they didn't ask, they demanded. If you're going to be here, you're going to cover your face with this piece of cloth because this Bible says you're to love your neighbor as yourself. And they make that argument from that verse. I'm fine. If somebody. I mean, to this day, we have some people that will wear a mask because they believe their immune system is compromised. Whatever it may be, that's a person's right and freedom to make that choice. But when I tell you you have to do it because of Jesus, that's when I'm weaponizing the gospel. [00:12:39] Speaker A: Correct. [00:12:41] Speaker B: And now that people are saying what you and I are saying, what they are suggesting is this is adding to the gospel. This is things that Christians have no business talking about because it could be a stumbling block to our neighbor. My experience has been our neighbors are demanding that we show our hand on these issues because they've been deceived. [00:13:03] Speaker A: They have. Exactly right. And here it is. I'm going to give you the, you know, I'm just a lawyer. I'm not a preacher, but I'm outside, so I can see the forest maybe better than you preachers can, who are all in there around the fire pit. You see what has happened to the government, health agencies and the loss of trust. You see what's happened to the media and the loss of trust. In the most recent Gallup Media Trust Survey, this came out last week. Among Republicans, only 8% said they trusted the media very much or somewhat 8%. Among Democrats, it averaged at around 32%. It was 67% before the pandemic. Wow. Nobody trusts the CDC, not Democrats or Republicans. [00:13:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:00] Speaker A: The same thing is happening to our churches. It's just quieter. And that loss of trust, that leaking, bleeding out of trust happened because of the things that we're talking about. Those. Those messages that were given during the pandemic and never corrected. And people remember, certainly you think they forget. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Right. So we discussed through text another situation. Speaking of the line between preaching the gospel and speaking cultural issues. A young man down in Texas is an entrepreneur. He's Daniel Keene. Daniel Kean is going to work one day, and he's driving through his little Texas town, and there is a road that is Entirely blocked. Traffic can't proceed because of some Hindu worshipers have commandeered that street and set up an idol to Ganesh, the Hindu God. And they're worshiping, celebrating their Hindu God. [00:15:05] Speaker A: That's the elephant one, right? [00:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So he's actually. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's the one you're talking about. The statue. [00:15:14] Speaker A: I think it's Ganesh. Yes. It's the body of a man and the head of an elephant I think is the Ganesh. If I remember it right. [00:15:20] Speaker B: You're probably right. So Daniel Keene gets on X or his wife videos it, actually sends it to him and he says, you know, if I wanted to raise my kids in India, I would have raised my kids in India. This is not what I want for my children to have the roads blocked by Hindu God. An idol. As we're trying to go home after ball practice or whatever it might be, his pastors saw his post and they call him in for a sit down. Now, I don't think you've ever experienced that. I don't know, but it's not fun. I've experienced that when I was a church member and it's like being called to the principal's office and you're kind of going to get your hands swatted. [00:16:05] Speaker A: It's a miracle that I haven't. [00:16:06] Speaker B: It really is. Yeah, I'll give you that. But I've been there and it's not fun. And, you know, regardless of how much we may know that pastors are just ordinary people that God is using in that field, they do represent the kingdom of heaven in some ways. And so when they come, bring you into their office and say you've done something that's worthy of this, that can shake a man. You know, I've seen it happen. So these elders of the church bring him in and say, daniel, you've crossed a line. What you said was prejudice. What you said was not loving your neighbor. First instinct is, are they right? I didn't consider that. But he thinks a little longer and he goes, maybe it actually is loving my neighbor to say, I don't want a Hindu God set up in the middle of the street. Ambulances can't get through. And so at least it's a multi perspectival issue that you could look at from several ways. And it's certainly short of being something that we should bring someone into the church discipline process over. He's not denying the Trinity. In fact, this is the kind of thing that the Prophets of God probably would have gotten out of their car and called out. But we live in a day where that is crossing the line, saying the worship of Ganesh is an issue. It goes back to Trump recently attached. This was a $100,000 fee for a. [00:17:54] Speaker A: Worker to come in the H1B visa. [00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, tell us about that. You know more about that aspect of it than I would. [00:18:01] Speaker A: So one very long time, very controversial immigration practice is these things called H1B visas. And they allow an employer, in theory, to bring in somebody who doesn't, is not a citizen from a different country who has some specialized knowledge or expertise, you know, that they can do something that it's hard to find Americans to do. And that was the original. [00:18:28] Speaker B: And that's probably mostly in the tech field. [00:18:31] Speaker A: High tech was kind of where it started in medicine. And so what happened was that, of course, like any other government program, it sort of broadened out and employers started bringing in foreign workers who, you know, maybe didn't have super, you know, like customer service or the help desk. Right. Not the guy who designs the AI supercomputer. And the reason, which it's. From an economic standpoint, it's hard to blame the employers is because these foreign workers are a lot cheaper. And so they don't need a visa, they don't need a green card. They just get the. They don't need to be part of the immigration process. They just get this H1B approval, and in they come. And what happened was a lot of American workers were getting displaced, so they were getting passed over. They were getting laid off. So, for example, I think I'm just going to pick Microsoft. I don't remember if it was Microsoft. It could have been Amazon, but they laid off 10,000 workers, saying that it was because of the economy. But then quietly, they hired 10,000 H1Bs. And so people are, you know, some people are upset about that. [00:19:45] Speaker B: And these, the people being laid off are American citizens, primarily. [00:19:49] Speaker A: Correct. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:50] Speaker A: And so you can see the argument, right. We shouldn't be. Our laws shouldn't let employers bring in cheap foreign workers to put Americans out of work. I mean, that just doesn't make any sense. I don't. A lot of people blame employers. I don't blame employers. They're playing by the rules. The government sets up the rules. Right, Right. And Microsoft has to compete against Apple and Amazon has to compete against Best Buy, and so they're going to try to get the lowest cost. Well, anyway, so Trump signed an executive order. He can't change the H1B thing without Congress. But he signed an order. What he can do is he can raise the application fees. And so it's not entirely clear to me why they did it this way. Obviously, they were anticipating some kind of lawsuit. But they require employers to make $100,000 gift to the US government in order to get an H1B applicant. And that dramatically increases the cost of bringing somebody in H1B. Now, they've already started. I mean, everybody had a fit, and they're already working at the exceptions and everything else. So I don't think there's going to be a final resolution until Congress can fix it. But I believe that this gentleman that you're talking about also had some positions about H1BS that upset. There is a huge contingent of Indians in India who are online and they're very active. And if anybody criticizes H1B, they'll send bot armies after them and try to get them canceled and fired from their job and make their. Their lives very difficult. I think that happened in this case. And I suspect. I mean, I don't know. But you were kind enough not to name the church. I will. It's Trails Church in the Dallas Fort Worth area. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and I would go beyond that and even say Matt Boswell, many of us sing his music. He's a great worship writer. His Mercy is More is a very popular worship song. A lot of what Matt's done is great, but like Greer that we were speaking to earlier, there's been a fear factor brought toward these guys from somewhere that just says, this is not, you know, in the realm of the church. You have certain positions that you are to take when it's related to these policies, especially the ones coming from the right. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah, well, so there's so many problems. And I can look at this as a lawyer, and by the way, I mean, I think this has affected people. There's. I wouldn't say it's gone viral, but there's a lot of attention. Blaze wrote an article about it. Megan Basham's been tweeting nonstop about this situation, and it's getting some traction. But, you know, the reason, I think, is, first of all, that the tweet itself, you know, I don't want my kids to be raised Indian. I want him to be raised American. Is pretty inoffensive. I mean, you can think of a lot worse. I probably tweet a lot worse stuff than that. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:22:59] Speaker A: I mean, you know, there's a. I won't mention him by name, but there is A highly placed Biden era official in the health agencies that I consistently refer to as a human cockroach. So, I mean, I would hate for, you know, to be under. [00:23:14] Speaker B: That may not be the most lovingly thing. [00:23:16] Speaker A: Yes. You know, in an attenuated Good Samaritan type of situation, he might be my neighbor. But anyway, so that's the first thing, is that I don't think anybody really feels comfortable with the idea of the elders of a church. Reviewing your social media history and picking out your political commentary and then deciding whether or not it is immoral or sinful. But that's not even the worst, because it was innocuous. And I listened to his. He was on a podcast, John Heroes. Yeah. And so I listened to the whole story. It was a little bit over an hour. And what happened was that he went in and met with the elders, the first of many times that he had to meet with them. And they basically agreed that. That taken alone, that the tweet itself was not sinful or problematic in any way, but they intuited an intention behind it. So they read a racist motive to the tweet, and that's what they were complaining about. It wasn't the tweet, they said. [00:24:36] Speaker B: It was the fact that I noticed that. And it was when I first heard that I served previously in Huntsville, Alabama. Huntsville has the highest PhD per capita in the whole nation because of Redstone Arsenal. [00:24:50] Speaker A: Rocket City. [00:24:51] Speaker B: Right. NASA has the installation there. And so there's a very large Indian presence. However, the Indians. We had Indians in our church. Some of the greatest people that we had were Indians. However, they were not Hindu. They were people who had been raised in a Christian family. They had been in a Christian church in India. They came over. They were great members of our church. If I said. If I looked at the Indian friends that we had at Capshaw and said, you know, there's really too many of these guys. I don't want my kids to be raised in India. I want them to be raised in the United States. Or as an American, that might be racist because I'm attaching it to who they are as people. But they were not Hindus. They were not worshiping Ganesh in the middle of the street. [00:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah, they're lucky I'm not a member at Trails Church, because you know what I would have done? I would have come to services the next morning and worn a giant elephant head. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Well, there you go. Yeah, let's see how long they love their neighbor, right? [00:26:00] Speaker A: Is Daniel their neighbor? [00:26:03] Speaker B: Well, you would think, and you would Think that, I guess where I struggle with my brothers that are in ministry that are making these decisions, why do we only point the neighbor card in one direction? And it's always whatever direction serves the. [00:26:22] Speaker A: Left'S ideology that the elders think they're exempt or partially exempt from that commandment when they sit in judgment of their fellow Christians. [00:26:30] Speaker B: It seems so. [00:26:31] Speaker A: And by the way, I just want to say for the record, you know, we don't know Trail's church's side. [00:26:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Because they're not talking. And they're probably right not to talk because if they say something negative about Daniel, he's going to sue them for defamation. So their lawyer probably told them not to say anything about the situation. So I don't. [00:26:50] Speaker B: That's fair. [00:26:50] Speaker A: I don't blame him for that. But they could say general things. And for the record, I just want to say I tried to call Dr. Boswell yesterday and left a message and asked for anybody to call me back to talk about it. And it's been radio silence. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:04] Speaker A: So we have no choice but to make an opinion without any benefit of hearing what they think about it. [00:27:11] Speaker B: Well, I went a step further as well, looking at Daniel. Daniel has, you know, probably a similar following to what I have. He probably has 3,000 or so people following him on X. But if you look through his history, it's not, you know, there are people. There are very subtly problem people that they're just looking for the right time and reason. So as a pastor, I get that. I get that you have people that are just trying to find a reason to make a bruja out of something that doesn't need to be. That's not the tenor that I pick up from this guy's spirit. I know in the interview, it didn't seem like he was a troublemaker in general. It shocked me that he was like, can I just stay in the church? I just want to be left alone, be a member of the church. I don't have to be an elder. [00:27:59] Speaker A: He had a lot of duties and responsibilities that they took away first. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:04] Speaker A: And he was okay with that. He was willing to accept that discipline for nothing, or at least something he didn't agree with. And they still asked him to leave. So I sound critical of trails, and I am critical of trails, I think. And by the way, I have some experience with church discipline on the outside, because the only time I ever ran into it was 10 years ago at my church in Gainesville when they had to invoke church discipline over a member who had too Much love to give. [00:28:37] Speaker B: He was really loving his neighbor. [00:28:40] Speaker A: He was loving several of his neighbor's wives. [00:28:42] Speaker B: There you go. But those are the cases that the only instance of church discipline that we have in the New Testament is with a guy who's sleeping with his father's wife. Okay. And Paul says even the outsiders, unbelievers are saying that's not right. So, you know, these are. It's reserved for the most extreme cases. It's not your Twitter history. Can we agree on that? [00:29:11] Speaker A: Well, it's not. It's beyond that. It's their interpretation of what he meant by it. [00:29:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:18] Speaker A: So it's several levels above just whatever he wrote. I mean, you could imagine somebody writing something really horrible that required. [00:29:24] Speaker B: We've had to. And I would say it like this. We've had two occasions at our church where somebody used the N word out in the lobby of the church. And for whatever reason, they use the N word that warrants us going up and saying, hey, man, you can't do that here. Rein that in. You know, I could talk about why. And one guy wanted to talk about why. The other guy's like, you're right. I should have known better. Right. And so you can put that in a category of a rebuke or discipline or whatever, but to take. [00:29:59] Speaker A: To go all the way to formal church discipline. [00:30:02] Speaker B: Yeah. It's got to really be a pattern of, you know, a heart. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:12] Speaker A: And so when this situation that I'm referring to that I was involved in, the church consulted me as a lawyer on some of the involved legal issues. Right. Because they didn't want to get into any legal liability. And it was so rare that they conducted formal church discipline that it had been longer than anybody could remember since they had to do one. And so I was, you know, fairly deeply involved in all the facts and the, you know, the ecclesiastical side of it, as well as consulting on the legal side. And I would have a lot of suggestions for trails. For example, they should have given him an advocate. In his podcast, Daniel said that he had. He was friends with some of the elders, and they basically ghosted him once the discipline started. That's the exact opposite of how it should have gone. They should have nominated one or both of those. [00:31:04] Speaker B: It is a legal process. It's a church's legal process. And so what you're suggesting is an attorney, an advocate in that sense, that could speak for him. [00:31:16] Speaker A: It's the spiritual advocate. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Somebody to take his side. So it wasn't seven elders on one side of the conference. Table and this poor guy on the other side fending for himself, who'd never done it before. That sounds like a Star Chamber style prosecutorial thing rather than an attempt to ra repair fellowship. You see what I'm saying? So if we're really trying to restore fellowship, then that member needs some help. They need somebody to be on their side. And that doesn't mean that elder assigned to Daniel would have to accept what happened, but that elder would look at it from Daniel's point of view and say, hey, hold on, guys. What he's really saying is. And that kind of thing. And then Daniel leastwise. Yeah. So that's the first thing. But they've opened a Pandora's box. They have no idea what's coming. Okay? It could destroy the church. Let me explain to you why, and you'll see it as soon as I tell you. You haven't thought of this yet, but they're going to be thinking about it really soon because I don't know how many conservatives they have at that church, probably a minority. But you know what's going to happen now? Some of those conservatives are sitting around feeling unhappy about how it went down because it's so political. And so they're going to go look at the social media history of other members and they're going to find some member that said Charlie Kirk got what he deserved. And they're going to take that to the elders and they're going to say, now do this one. And you know what the elders are going to say? I'll bet you $1,000 they'll say, all right, hold on, let's not get carried away with this. We've already sent the message that needed to be sent. And then you know how the conservatives in that church are going to feel like, wait a minute. When it was a political position you liberals disagreed with, you drove the guy out of the church. Now here's somebody saying something 10 times worse and you won't do anything. Now how's that going to play out? You've led a church, we've been there. [00:33:19] Speaker B: And what ends up happening. And I think this gets back to our first discussion. There's a number of people, I would say in that church that if they had to articulate where they believe their pastor stood on the issues, they probably would not describe Matt as a left leaning individual. Maybe they would. I don't know that much about Matt, never heard him teach, but they probably would not describe him as leftist, liberal, whatever it may be. And people who are truly conservative generally will not be drawn to that sort of church. Right. They're going to find somebody that sees the world the way they do in this generation. But what's going to happen, I would say, is it's going to force the elders of that church to articulate where they are on any number of issues now. And what they're trying to do to stop a conversation from happening is going to have the opposite effect that they're going to say, well, where are you at? Where is the line for us to say it's okay to love your country and the culture of your country and to not want to just hand that over to idolaters? [00:34:33] Speaker A: Right, right. Which brings us right back to where you started with the Christian nationalist schism that's happening. And let me ask you this. Do you think Charlie Kirk was a Christian nationalist? [00:35:06] Speaker B: Sam, are you tired of the watered down takes on what's happening in our world? I'm Pastor Zach Terry, and I believe that Christians should not be the last ones to know what's really going on. That's why I started writing on Substack. Think of it like sitting down for coffee each week, except we're talking worldview theology and the behind the scenes moments that I can't always share from the pulpit or the podcast. It's direct, it's biblical, and it's uncensored. If you want to be equipped, not just entertained, subscribe today. Zacterry.substack.com let's build a tribe of truth tellers in a confused culture. [00:36:16] Speaker A: Would they call him a Christian nationalist? [00:36:18] Speaker B: Of course they would. And I don't hate the term. I don't know what is necessarily what definition you're working from. [00:36:25] Speaker A: It's not scriptural. [00:36:26] Speaker B: No, no, but. But I think we talked about last time we were together. You said something that's haunted me in a good way. And you said something like, always watch the descriptors. Watch for those words that are used. It's not just justice, it's social justice. Right. And you said that's typically a way to smuggle in a leftist ideology. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Correct. [00:36:53] Speaker B: So that I've thought about that about every day since the last time we talked. And when it comes to Christian nationalists, which word is describing the other? Is it that we're a certain type of Christian or we're a certain type of nationalist, or is it some combination of the both? You understand what I mean? [00:37:14] Speaker A: No, you're 100% right. And as I said when I wrote that post, the dead giveaway on any of these little crypto Marxist linguistic tricks is that they can't define it. So what is the definition of a Christian nationalist? If you put that into Google or Webster's Online, you're going to get a different definition than what J.D. greer probably said. [00:37:38] Speaker B: Right. I would say I am a Christian by scriptural definitions. I'm not a globalist. I don't want a One World government. I'm not a globalist. So I would say the opposite of being a globalist is a nationalist in that regard. I'm a Christian nationalist, and I don't see that as a pejorative. [00:37:58] Speaker A: I'm fine with that term, Christian and nationalist, not a Christian nationalist, whatever that is. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Explain the difference in the two. How would you explain the difference? Because I hear what you're saying. I get that. I'm a Christian and I'm a nationalist. [00:38:12] Speaker A: Okay? [00:38:12] Speaker B: But they mean something different. [00:38:14] Speaker A: They do mean something different. And it's like this. So we all know what a Christian is, right? That's somebody who believes certain things. Not even that long of a list. Right. And you're a Christian, and then there's a whole billion denominations of Christians underneath that. But then over here you have a Christian nationalist. And the way people like J.D. greer describe it, that's different from a Christian in the same way that social justice is different from justice. Okay? So if a Christian nationalist, what they're really saying is a Christian nationalist isn't a Christian, now if you confront them on it, they'll say, oh, no, we're not saying that. Just like if you said, hey, social justice isn't justice. Of course it's justice. Yeah. Because you're twisting the definitions all around. [00:39:01] Speaker B: The way, the context that you're using those words in. [00:39:04] Speaker A: You got to force them to tell you what they mean by that. [00:39:07] Speaker B: Right? [00:39:07] Speaker A: And then what you'll suddenly discover is that, number one, they're reluctant. Or they'll say, it's hard to define, but I know it when I see it kind of thing. Or they'll give you a definition that doesn't fit any of the other definitions that you can find, you know, from any other church leader somewhere talking about the same thing. So they're saying a Christian nationalist isn't a Christian. That's the bottom line. And they're characterizing it as some kind of a heresy. But again and again, I'm just a lawyer, I'm not a theologian. Right. I'm not trying to tell anybody about theology. But who created the nations? Who set the boundaries around the nations? [00:39:51] Speaker B: Human government? God did. [00:39:53] Speaker A: God did it. [00:39:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:56] Speaker A: Who created Globalism, Satan. Well, and then who on earth, what human being created globalism first? [00:40:05] Speaker B: Are you going back to, like, Babel? [00:40:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Nimrod, the name that is so cursed, nobody ever names their child Nimrod anymore. Right. He was the one that created globalism. So it baffles me why some Christians are adhering to, you know, publicly adhering to this Babylonian ideology of globalism. God created the nations. It's not up to us to destroy the borders and to blur all the nations together and create a one world government. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Well, Paul said in Acts, God determined your habitation. He determined the places of your dwelling. So, you know, Jeff Childers is an American because God determined that you would be an American. What pastors wrestle with, and I can understand it because I've had to wrestle through it myself. When you're reading the New Testament, you're reading the Gospels, the life of Jesus, you're reading the epistles, and these are the writings of the apostles. You're trying to determine when they woke up in the morning, what agenda were they trying to forward. I can agree that Paul did not seem to wake up in the morning very concerned about the policies of Rome. I agree with that. Paul was mostly concerned about the holiness of the church, the right understanding, the right ordering of the home within the church, things such as these. I want to give the benefit of the doubt to people like Boswell and Greer that they want to maintain that same priority of the apostles where I think they get into trouble and where I had to get off of that bus. And it's where it became apparent that what they really felt was there are some things over which God has no authority or sovereignty or thoughts. So Paul would say that I champion the gospel. I consider it foremost. I purpose to know nothing among you save Christ and him crucified. That's true. Totally, totally true. And I agree with it. Where I think there's a disconnect is that Christ that I purpose to know only among you and preach is crucified is the Christ who was given all authority in heaven and on earth. He's the Christ that we were taught to teach them to obey all the things I commanded you. And there's not an asterisk there that says, except for Caesar, except for Trump. [00:42:55] Speaker A: So what's that old. You'll remember it. The old saying about Christians whose heads. [00:43:03] Speaker B: Are so high, so heavenly minded, they're no earthly good. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Isn't this a representation of exactly that problem? [00:43:14] Speaker B: Well, that's what I think. That's what we're trying to figure out, is that what's going on, or is it that we're preaching two different gospels, we're preaching two different Christ. [00:43:24] Speaker A: So let's take the most extreme example now. And I don't want to. I'm just going to say let's say Trump isn't a fully informed Christian at the moment. He could be. I'm not saying he isn't. Let's just say for hypothetical, he's not an apostle. We can right now. Fair. But you have an opportunity to get one on one with him and convert him. Right. And you lead him to Christ. Now, are you then going to insist that he stops all the mean tweets and everything else that makes him politically successful? [00:43:55] Speaker B: Give him the same grace you would give anyone else. [00:43:59] Speaker A: He has to govern in a completely different way. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Well, when it comes to Trump, I'd have to think through what you're saying. But when it comes to Trump, I compare Trump and Biden, and when some of the most important policy decisions are being made, I look at those two men and I ask which one is most likely to have an evangelical Christian, at least at the table, versus a transgender, purple hair whatever, who is speaking into the direction of our country? Well, you know, my hope would be, and I've seen that to be true with Trump, that he's going to have several. He's going to surround himself with people who have a certain worldview. And I believe that that's best for our country. It's best for the future of our country. And if that's Christian nationalism, okay, There. [00:44:51] Speaker A: Was Christians who supported Biden in the last election, even some with major Christian magazines and stuff. [00:44:58] Speaker B: Sure. [00:45:00] Speaker A: And they argued that Biden was a godlier man than Trump was now. And that brings us back to the discussion, which is there's something happening. Right. People want to know what your political position is. Now. They're not satisfied with you just obscuring it and pretending to be apolitical. They want to know. They don't want to be led by someone who's secretly on one side or the other. My choice is I look at the two political parties and again, you know what else the pandemic did? I had this conversation with an author. A woman is doing a book about the pandemic. She wrote one about 9 11, who Trump wrote the foreword to this is back in 2002 or something, so long before he had presidential aspirations. But we were talking about the pandemic, and I was not really very political. I mean, I would have called myself a conservative and you know, when I did rarely vote in the odd presidential election, it was always for the Republican candidate. Although I will admit to, you know, voting for one third party candidate who shall remain nameless forever. But what I see when I look at the current Democrat Party and the left is a whole long list of things that, as a Christian, I cannot abide. Abortion, transgenderism. This is what just drives me crazy about these religious leaders that we've been talking about. They would say that you should use the person's pronouns that they want you to use to love your neighbor, which is, in my view, is just contributing to their mental illness. [00:46:50] Speaker B: Exactly right. [00:46:51] Speaker A: We don't treat any other mentally ill people that way. We don't tell them that, yes, you can fly, but what about the child who's on the brink of going to get irreversible genital surgery? What's your obligation to love that neighbor? Encourage them to go. [00:47:13] Speaker B: No, you sit down and you tell them the truth. You do it in love. You speak the truth in love. And, you know, we've dealt with that. We've had that in our church. [00:47:25] Speaker A: That's exactly correct. And I'd like to know what Dr. Boswell and Dr. Greer would say about that. [00:47:30] Speaker B: And I think there's an idea, and this is part of the problem. There's an idea. If somebody has fully embraced that life that they walk into your church. There's not in these days, and I think it's something in the climate these days. But we have quite a few people, you know, our church, you know how we're the most conservative church anywhere around that I'm aware of. If I thought there was a church further to the right, I would move. It's just, you know, that's the way, you know, I see it. But we've had a great number of people who are from the LGBTQ community not coming in in a militant sense. They're coming in to hear what we have to say. I sat down with a lesbian couple. They're married, and they're seeking counsel as to what do we do with what scripture says versus where we're living. And very, you know, simply and easily, I said, let me give you a couple of things up front. I don't wake up in the morning concerned about who you're sleeping with. It's not really on my radar. That's just not so. So whatever you think about a pastor, we're not walking around curious about it. That's kind of weird in my mind. So I love you. You're always welcome to come Worship here and hear the sermons. Membership, we would have to talk through some things, but to come in and be not agitated, not picked on, to know that you're loved and welcome in this community of people, that's absolutely clear to me and I hope that they feel that from me. So with that said, you struggle with same sex attraction and I struggle with heterosexual attraction. I always have. I've always liked girls. Just that's the way God made me. I look in scripture and I see that I'm to be in a monogamous covenant relationship with one woman till death do we part. Then I see another girl that's not my wife, that's attractive. And I've got to decide, do I take the scripture and bring it into subjection with my desires or do I take my desires and bring them in subjection to the scriptures? And I said, I've got to make that decision practically every day of my life. And I said, I would not ask any more of you than I ask of myself is if you have these same sex attraction and it's out of alignment with scripture, you can't just snap your finger and make it go away. But you can say, my goal is to bring it under the authority of the truth. They heard it. I think the way that they received that was that's fair enough, that's logical and it makes sense. However, I'm not going to bash and hate and, you know, distance myself from that person. If they walk out of there and choose to continue their relationship, I don't hate that person. If I see them at a restaurant in town, I'm going to go up and give them a hug, you know. Yeah, so, but, but here's the issue. When you've got a young person 16, 17 years old who's trying to make up their mind, did they go into that lifestyle or not? When I speak clarity from the pulpit on those issues or in settings like this, I can't just be thinking about the person who's fully embraced the lifestyle, who is my neighbor that I'm to love. I've also got to think about that young man or young woman who's wrestling with it. And I think that's where we're missing the ball. One of the ladies told me, she said, I want to be a Christian. When I went to my pastor as a teenager, before I walked into his office, I said to myself, he knows the Bible more than I do. Whatever he tells me, I'm going to receive it as true and proceed accordingly. So if he tells me, you need to not listen to these desires, you need to fight against them. I'm going to believe he knows what he's talking, and I believe he loves me. Walked in, the pastor said, well, there's several different ways. You can look at the Hebrew there and there. There's, you know, if you're in a monogamous relationship between two people of the same sex, then we just don't have a lot of comment on that in Scripture. But I think the Lord would be fine with it. And she proceeded accordingly. Now, those people are in our churches every single Sunday that are trying to figure this out. They need to hear truth. They need to hear, this is what's right, this is what's wrong. I had a lady. [00:52:20] Speaker A: Why isn't that loving your neighbor? [00:52:22] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. It's hating your neighbor to not give them truth. A lady in our church, brokenhearted, I mean, counseling for years, went through an abortion when she was younger. We have all the grace in the world. We're helping her. We love her, but it's not. I can't change the message that I preach that abortion is murder because I know it might offend her. It doesn't. She knows it is. She knows the hell that she's dealt with because of it. But I've got to preach that because she knows as a young person, she never heard it was an issue from the pulpit. So when she was faced with that temptation, it seems logical. [00:53:08] Speaker A: No help from the church. [00:53:10] Speaker B: No, no. On her own, it was not. They were trying to do what I believe some of these people are suggesting. Just preach the gospel. Don't get into those matters. And as a result, you've got people dealing with decades of this. [00:53:26] Speaker A: How do you equip your. The people, the sheep that you're leading, that you've been entrusted with. How do you equip them to deal with all those temptations out in the world if you don't address those issues? And they're everywhere. [00:53:37] Speaker B: And there's some things that you and I might talk about here that we'll make available to the whole world. And some of the things that I would say here, I can't think of anything but I may not delve into, you know, the policies that Trump is signing in the pulpit. If it comes up in the text, sure, we'll go there. But that's probably not what I'm going to lead with on Sunday morning. But I think that's why platforms like this are so important, because they will interpret a lot of what I say on Sunday morning because they know oh, this is how he fleshes it out in real life. Does that make sense? [00:54:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So, like, if. If I tweeted something like, Pastor Zach wasn't at his best this Sunday, then I would expect to maybe hear from you to my, you know, however many 20,000, 30,000 followers or whatever it is. But if I tweet that I think people should drop their Netflix subscription because they're running cartoons with transgender issues in it, and I don't want my kids or anybody else's kids looking at that, then am I being intolerant towards the tiny population of transgender folks who are who I believe have mental illness? Am I not loving them by telling my followers, I think you should cancel your Netflix subscription? I'm confused by what I hear from Dr. Boswell and Dr. Greer about what I should do. What should I do as a Christian? Like I said, I'm not a theologian. Who do I look to for the answer? [00:55:18] Speaker B: Right. And one would hope that you didn't have to say that. You could just retweet what your pastor said. [00:55:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that would make it super easy. Wouldn't that be nice? My pastor says, and, you know, that's where I go to church. [00:55:32] Speaker B: There are countless issues where we deal with the same thing. When we were in Israel and the war with Hamas broke out, we're stuck over there, you know, 50 some odd of our people. We're looking up and seeing smoke on the horizon. We're hearing gunfire, automatic weapons at night. And I turn to our Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, and I keep waiting for that tweet to where they're condemning this, saying, this is horrible. We've got our Baptist brothers and sisters over there. Let's get them out. Let's pray for him. Something, some moral clarity that it's not a gray issue, that to parachute in and rape people is frowned upon in scripture. And so eventually, the recent head of that entity stepped down, which I think is a very healthy thing for our convention. And I hope that they replace him with someone who matters like that. Are not things we should have to think through for days and days and days? Is murder acceptable? Is it right? Is it wrong? And eventually, I reached out to Brent directly and said, would you please say something? You know, you speak for the moral conscience of Southern Baptists. This is not a difficult one to figure out. Would you please say something about what's going on over here? And he wrote back and said, well, what would you like me to say to say you shouldn't take a pregnant lady and cut her baby out and murder the baby as the woman's watching. I mean, that's not a real problem. [00:57:18] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, man. This is maybe even bigger than what we've been talking about. All these different issues. You see the same people right on the left and you know, some of them use very guarded language and you know, they're very graceful about it and everything, but they advocate for the Muslim Palestinians and criticize the Israelis. And once again, I am not an expert on the whole Israel thing, so nobody should listen to my opinion about it. But what I do notice the glaring omission that they're not talking about the 100,000 Nigerian Christians that have been killed in the last four years, murdered by Muslims in that country. [00:57:59] Speaker B: Nobody's talking about that. [00:58:01] Speaker A: Why aren't they talking about that? Right? That's like right here on our doorstep. I mean, that's. You want to go and you can't evangelize people if they're dead. Right. [00:58:12] Speaker B: It's hard to love a dead neighbor. [00:58:13] Speaker A: It is hard to love a dead neighbor. Very few. You have very few options remaining at that point. So, Pastor, what is going on? Why are they silent about Christian persecution? [00:58:28] Speaker B: There's a mob mentality that is very prevalent in our educational institutions, in our media of here's what you talk about, here's the position you take. And if you go up to the average person who are in these free Palestine marches or whatever it may be, this is just the cool thing to do at the moment. And these are not necessarily people who've thought deeply about those issues because they are complex issues. I'm not the kind of person that would say Israel's always right no matter what they do. And it is a complicated thing that you do have to make some hard decisions when it comes down to the Arab, Israeli, larger conflict and figure out how to make that, make peace in that region that's never had it. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's. So that's the dichotomy, right? It's like I'm not even saying you need to pick a side between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Get on your Christian brothers and sisters side. Yeah, pick their side. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:39] Speaker A: Right. And why spend 90% of your time talking about this one conflict in a postage stamp size part of the world versus your real Christian who we could help? I mean, how many of those people could we relocate? Could we, you know, get out of at least that part of the country and help them move to a different, a safer part of the country? Right. I mean, there's Stuff we could do well. [01:00:04] Speaker B: And the influence of religion and policy, those two things that people are trying so passionately to keep separated. The rest of the world has already picked a side. [01:00:19] Speaker A: By the way, the. I just read a story about this. The president of Blackwater. Not Black Rock, Black Water, the military, private military outfit. He is taking a small army of mercenaries over to Nigeria to help those Christians. [01:00:37] Speaker B: Is he doing that on his own? [01:00:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Well. [01:00:40] Speaker B: Wow. [01:00:41] Speaker A: And so I plan to try to help raise some money for that if I can find. He hasn't put up a donation site or anything, but he could use some help from our religious leaders. [01:00:53] Speaker B: From our religious leaders. And, you know, a lot of time when. When I love reading about those things because it's just, you know, it's just like a movie from the 80s, right? Yeah. Kind of one of your specialty. Yeah. Isn't that cool? And. But it really happens. [01:01:05] Speaker A: I'm gonna get you, sucker. [01:01:06] Speaker B: I've met those guys. We've got guys in Jacksonville who've done special ops kind of things, you know, and what they ask for many times is it's not necessarily that we need the US Government to underwrite and give us all the tools or serve in any capacity. It's just stay out of our way and let us go take care of the job. And whoever is in the halls of power at that moment, that's the decision that many times they're having to make, is, do we let these guys go and do what's right, or do we put all kinds of barriers up to keep them from helping people that are desperately needing their help? And that's when I want people. I want a few. And I don't know that Pete's. I don't know how he is in his expertise, but I think the heart, the intuition of a Pete Hegseth would look at that situation and say, at least we can stay out of their way. Does that make sense? [01:02:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And from a government perspective, I see, you know, that's all this sort of backroom stuff that has to happen to make a government run efficiently. Right. But we run. We're part of a worldwide religious organization. And, you know, even as in our, you know, we're Christians and we're Southern Baptists and, you know, Florida Baptist Convention and, you know, right down the line, the hierarchy, I guess. But where are our leaders in helping organize us to help our Christian brothers and sisters? Now, didn't Jesus talk about the Christians who get drunk and abuse their fellow Christians? [01:02:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:51] Speaker A: So isn't there a higher duty in scripture between Christians to help and comfort each other than your neighbor, I think. [01:02:59] Speaker B: So there's a peculiar love. The scripture will say things like Christ died for all men, but especially the church, and that we're to love all men, but especially those of the household of faith. So there's a peculiar sense and a duty toward our brothers and sisters in Christ. And I think if you went back to early America, I don't know that we would recognize the pastors from that day versus the pastors from this day when every Sunday they're talking about taking up arms and doing something about this threat. [01:03:36] Speaker A: Right. You know, it wasn't until the 60s, when the Johnson amendment passed, that that pastors stopped talking about politics, openly endorsing candidates. And so what would. What would Dr. Boswell and Dr. Greer say about those pastors before 1960? Were they sinning? [01:03:52] Speaker B: And here's the tricky thing. It depends on if you're talking about the white pastors or the black pastors, you know, because Martin Luther King Jr. Was in many ways a Christian nationalist. He was using Christian ethics and morals to forward a policy decision. Right. The letter from the Birmingham jail, you know, they have no problem with that. No problem with that. We will champion King and say, see, he got involved in the process. He was peaceful, but he preached the truth and he loved his neighbor through it. But if you see a person who's not of that skin tone doing the same thing, he's a fundamentalist Christian nationalist, not even sure he's a believer. That's a fact. [01:04:42] Speaker A: You went there, huh? So they are discriminatory because they wouldn't treat their minority, Indian, black, whatever member the same way they treat their white male member. And is that simple? [01:05:03] Speaker B: It is sinful, it's favoritism, it's wrong, and it's beyond that. And these are the kind of things that I think we're going to have to conversations we have to have. Is it okay as a follower of Jesus Christ in the United States of America, 2025, is it okay to say, I don't want to entirely lose the culture that we grew up with, the culture that we believe is distinctly and uniquely American, which is predominantly Christian, Our. [01:05:41] Speaker A: Christian culture, you mean? Yeah. Yes. [01:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And to say that what would have been called the west and Christendom, that that's not a bad thing, that's something that we shouldn't just let die, but we should take a stand for. It doesn't matter your skin tone. We should stand up for a Christianized form of society that that is preferable. To an Islamified form of society. Those are not fighting words. Those are not hatred of my neighbor. I've experienced both and I prefer one over the other. And I think most Americans would. [01:06:30] Speaker A: And the. And I've been picking on these two particular ones. They're by no means the only ones in this group. So maybe I should stop picking on Dr. Boswell and Dr. Greer. But they would not. If you asked them, they would not admit that they're advocating for the overthrow of Western civilization. But that's what they're doing. Having said that, I doubt either one of them's given it much intellectual thought. [01:07:03] Speaker B: I can't disagree with that. [01:07:05] Speaker A: So it's not a principled position that they're taking. I think it goes back to what you said about they're swimming in this consensus group. And the consensus group has rules, what you're allowed to say, what you're not allowed to say, what groups you should prefer, what groups you should hinder or try to slow down. And that's what's created this Christian nationalist versus Christian split. And so what's happening, it seems to me, is that the church, and this has been happening for a long time. Look at denominations like the Methodists. But the church is more rapidly now. This schism is accelerating. And that's just what you started off saying, is that people want to know where their pastor stands because they don't want to be on the wrong side. And so what does that mean at first bless? You would say, well, that's a bad thing. Right? Schism's always bad. But there's wheat and tares and a threshing process. And is it more like that? [01:08:14] Speaker B: Well, I think it could be. And this is one of those things, your expertise of thinking through this and articulating it in a way better than I can, it would take me longer to figure it out than it would you. But I'll present the issue. The way we have been taught is that there are top tier issues and there are secondary issues and tertiary issues. And top tier is what makes you a believer. It's who Jesus is, what Jesus has done, who God is, that God has revealed himself through holy Scripture, those sort of things. It's the type of thing that someone at the assembly of God or at the Southern Baptist Church or at the Methodist Church all should agree on. Then there's secondary issues. Secondary issues are why we have denominations. I deeply believe that sprinkling does not constitute biblical baptism. I've got Presbyterian brothers that I believe I'll be in heaven with forever that we just can't get on the same page with that. The way ecclesiology works, the government of the church, I believe in the autonomy of the local church. So those are secondary issues. You can be a Christian and disagree with me about that, but there are kind of these state lines within the national line that determines, okay, this is what a Baptist tends to believe and all that. And then there are tertiary issues. They're the lowest level type things that you and I in the same church may just agree to disagree on. And that might be some policy issues from time to time. I'm trying to think of one, a good one. Whether or not maybe the dollar should be on the gold standard, I may hold to that. You may disagree with that. I'm not going to split hairs over it with you. But something has shifted. And I think, I don't know if the shift happened in 2020 or if it just exposed the shift. So that some of those tertiary issues have such a dramatic impact that they're difficult just to walk away from. And what we had happen was people who said, I disagree with you on baptism, I think my sprinkling was fine, would much rather come to a church where the pastor can think through some of those tertiary issues because he's been in the church where they agreed on sprinkling. They agreed on the nature of who God is. They couldn't agree on what a man or a woman was. And what we might gender politics we might 20 years ago have put as a low level issue, should gays serve in the military? Can good people disagree on that? That might have been a low level issue in the Clinton administration today. Is a man a man? Can a man's sex and gender alignment or disalign, Those are no longer tertiary issues. If you can't get that right, how are you to tell me who God is if you don't know what a human is and a man is? And so that's the world that we live in. And that's why I would say to my brother, you can't relegate those conversations to the fire pit and just get in the pulpit, talk about God talk. [01:11:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think there's an increasing, and maybe this is like revival in a sense, but I think that Christians are in some ways more informed as to the theological implications of some of these issues. So, for example, in the men and women issue, is that really just a political position that it's fair to take either way? Or did God create the men and women? [01:12:08] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:09] Speaker A: And then you say, well, okay, but you Know, when God said he created the men and women, he meant you could change in between them, but those are your job. Well, what about the bigender people or the agender people or the things you're not any of the thousand, you know? Okay, so that's a rabbit hole you just can't go down. So is it even. Isn't everything at some level level theological? [01:12:34] Speaker B: It is. Anthropology is really a top tier issue. But if a person disagrees with your view of what? When God made man in his image, he made them male and female. If a person believes you're going to take that and use that to further a policy decision, that's where they would say you crossed a line. And I'm arguing that it's a line we've got to cross now because or the line has moved the lines come our way and brought social policy issues into the theological realm. [01:13:12] Speaker A: So I don't want to go to a doctor who required mass to go in his office for four years during COVID I draw all kinds of conclusions from that, from that one fact. [01:13:25] Speaker B: And that's the big deal. That's the thing that. And I don't think you're alone in that. I think there are unbelievers. I think there are Buddhists, there are homosexuals. There are any number of people who do the same thing who have recognized these little clues that, oh, okay, well, if you wear a red maga hat, then there's probably a lot of other things I can assume about you. That's just reality. [01:13:53] Speaker A: Yeah. They're not wrong. [01:13:55] Speaker B: No, they're not wrong. And to be able to say that and to say if you avoid all of those trappings, if you will not speak to any of those issues, either I can't assume anything about what you mean contextually, or I've got a come to my own conclusions. [01:14:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I think this brings us right back to an action item. I think what we need to do as sane Christians, theologically grounded Christians, is we need to fight back against the Marxist infiltration into our theology. How do you do that? By challenging the language. So you got to call people out for using the term Christian nationalist. [01:14:46] Speaker B: Where do you do that? [01:14:48] Speaker A: Whenever you encounter it. And publicly. Yeah. So if you're at the SBC convention and there's a session on Christian nationalism, then you should probably go to that session and at public comment, you should say, you guys should be ashamed for using that term because you're dividing Christians. [01:15:08] Speaker B: Is there a place because I wrestle with this, Jeff? I don't know. I Think I know where I fall on it, and I may disagree with you. Should we. Is there a place to embrace the term? [01:15:24] Speaker A: Well, so that's tricky because I totally understand your intent and I agree with the intent, but the practical effect is that you're creating another definition. [01:15:37] Speaker B: Well, but look at church history. So the people who followed Jesus, early on, they were the disciples of Jesus. They were followers of the Way. And then in Antioch, they were called Little Christ, the Christian. The term Christian, it was a negative, pejorative term that was, they were first called Christians at Antioch. Scripture says. But rather than say, you can't call us that, they embraced it, made it part of their brand. Move forward. Baptists, you know, the Anabaptists were the, oh, they're the again, baptizers. It was a critical term that rather than say, you can't call us that, eventually they just leaned into it and said, okay, we're the again, baptizers. Fair enough. And I wonder, when it comes to Christian nationalism, is that the thing that we look at and go, yeah, you. [01:16:32] Speaker A: Know, well, let me be humble first and say, I, you know, I don't know what the, the ultimate answer is. And I applaud the line of thinking that, you know, well, let's just surrender into it and say, fine. [01:16:46] Speaker B: And it doesn't, it doesn't mean, like, now it did. [01:16:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, you know, if you're going down that line, then the question is, okay, so, you know, I'm a Christian nationalist now. What? And then they'll say, well, you know, we're going to disaffiliate you from the SPC because we're not doing Christian nationalism here. And the reality is that your position is identical to 80% of SBC pastors, and it's no different. And they're just not brave enough to crawl out on the branch that you. [01:17:19] Speaker B: Crawled out on right now. We're not there. [01:17:22] Speaker A: We're not where we're at. [01:17:24] Speaker B: And you're right, it could very well go there right now. It's more of that subtle black ball. It's like, oh, they're Christian nationalists. Yeah. They can't be a part of this or that. It's not the type thing that, hey, it's one of the fastest growing churches in the convention. It's tripled in size in the last eight years. Maybe they're onto something. Let's at least hear them out. [01:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe there's a third way. Maybe. Maybe the answer is instead of a complete rebuke, which is what I suggested to Begin with. The answer is to say, well, listen, I might be a Christian nationalist, but define what you mean by that, and I'll tell you why. [01:18:03] Speaker B: That's where I've kind of landed on it in public when I get those charges. But I do think there's a large number of people that do what I do, that they're just saying, okay, well, give me a T shirt. I'll be that if that's what you want me to be. But I will define the terms. [01:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I asked you that question before. I think Charlie Kirk would have proudly said he was a Christian nationalist. Probably so, for example. But I don't like the, you know, just giving up that territory. And I want to take the fight to him, you know, at the beginning. And so I'm just opposed, like. And love thy neighbor is another good example. Okay, so I'll tell you my lesbian married couple story. At my house before the one we live in now in Gainesville, there was a lesbian married couple that lived down the street, and we had a hurricane one day, and their yard was filled with, you know, small trees and yard trash and stuff. And they weren't in any kind of physical condition to do anything about it. So I took my boys and we went down there and spent, you know, the better part of the day cleaning their yard for them. And to me, that's what I understand. Loving my neighbor is sure, but that's not what. There's a Marxist twist in the language. That's not what Dr. Boswell means by love thy neighbor. And so we've got to reach some clarity on that language and not let the Marxist technique is to blur the language and make it ambiguous so nobody's really sure what it means. And then they can make it mean anything they want. And that's what they're doing with love thy neighbor. And that's another one that I think should be challenged. [01:19:49] Speaker B: Wes Huff, have you heard Wes? Wes went on Rogan. He's an ancient language linguist, so he can speak to things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the ancient documents of scripture. Wes said something that. Another statement that kind of haunted me. You hear the phrase, history is written by the winners? He challenged that phrase, and he said, history is written by the literate. So anything we know about the Viking people, for example, it was written by these monks that were attacked by the Vikings. Everything we know about Linda's farm, we know about the Vikings because of the literate people. The Vikings were largely illiterate. They're my people, but they were largely illiterate So I think that's why a daily blog, Coffee and Covid. You've talked me into the substack world, so I've stepped into that. Being active on X20 Twitter, putting out truth as we see it, articulating it well, hopefully consistently acknowledging when we're wrong, but keeping that conversation in front of people, that's what writes history. It's not that we win or lose, it's that we made our case and time and eternity will. Will defend that or won't, depending on if we're right. [01:21:28] Speaker A: You're 100% right. And I'll give you a terrific example of it. You know, I'm Coffee and Covid. So I tie everything back to the pandemic, which I think was the most significant event in any of our lives. But there's book after book after book coming out about pandemic issues. And are you writing. [01:21:45] Speaker B: Are you going to write one? [01:21:45] Speaker A: By the way, that's what everybody said. If I have. If I can find the time, I will. I've got like five in my head, but other people are doing it, and that's the important thing. And what's not happening is the other side isn't writing books. [01:21:57] Speaker B: Oh, that's true. [01:21:58] Speaker A: Fauci wrote some stupid biography that nobody read. There's a few of them like that. But the catalog is filling up with our sides. Wow. [01:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I've not noticed that. But you're right. [01:22:10] Speaker A: And we got the literate ones. That's why. [01:22:12] Speaker B: Right. [01:22:14] Speaker A: And if they wrote a book, every one of their books would be identical because they're so communitarian minded and so restricted in what they're allowed to say about it and what they're not allowed to say about it that it would be uninteresting and uniform. [01:22:27] Speaker B: Well, you know, the feedback that I've gotten when we have these kind of conversations has been very, very positive. Our friends at church, our community friends. I sat down with one of our city commissioners yesterday and I said, we were at T Ray's next door and I said, oh, I'm doing this thing. It's a podcast and we do it over here. And he's like, oh, I've seen that. I'll watch Code Red. [01:22:54] Speaker A: Really? [01:22:54] Speaker B: Like people are watching it. It's neat to me that new believers, I'll have new believers that sat down with a guy yesterday and he's learning how to think by engaging in these kind of conversations. And so as we go forward, I'm wanting to bring more people in to contribute, to push back if needed. But I think it's really important that we don't just take it for granted that everybody sees things a certain way. And we don't take it for granted, necessarily, that we're right. We want to make the case and let the chips fall where they will for the ultimate glory of God and the good of man. So keep writing. [01:23:38] Speaker A: You, too. We're doing the work. Amen. And little by little, we're getting there. [01:23:43] Speaker B: Well, thank you again for joining me. [01:23:44] Speaker A: It's been a pleasure.