Can Women Be Pastors?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, guys. My name is Zach. Thank you for joining us for Code Red. Can women preach? Can women preach in Lord's Day worship at church? We're talking about that today on Code Red. I'm joined with Jenny Randall and we're going to have a healthy conversation. Thank you for joining us. This is Code Reddy. Tenny Randall, my friend. Welcome to Code Red. Welcome to the studio. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Hi, Pastor Zach. Good to be here. [00:00:30] Speaker A: So we've been talking about doing this for a little while, but we thought it might be good in light of some things that are happening in the Southern Baptist world and some things that you're responding to online, for us to come together as friends and talk through women in ministry, we might have a little different position on that. And we want to show how two friends can talk through this in a healthy way, in an edifying way, and not necessarily even that we're going to convince each other at the end of the episode, but maybe can enlighten people who are watching on how we come to the conclusions that we came to. So why don't we begin with just tell us who you are and people and how we're connected. Let's just tell the audience kind of what our connection is personally. [00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So I've been attending our church for 5ish years with my family. So you are my pastor. And before that, we became friends just based on mutual work. And you were developing a book and I was able to coach you through some of that. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. That preceded that. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was really fun. And then we just fell in love with the church and the community there. And of course, your exegetical style of preaching, I love that. So it's been fun being around. [00:01:47] Speaker A: And so your background, you had some time. Was it Sam Storms or. Where did you get introduced to exegetical preaching and develop a passion for exposition? [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Sam endorsed one of my books. That's the relationship there. And he's a theologian that I really respect and admire. So when I asked him if he would read a book I wrote called Getting Old God's Voice, and he actually read it, and then not only that, but he affirmed it, I just cried on the ground like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. That feels rare to me. So that was a really pivotal moment in my ministry of writing and speaking and things like that. But exegetical. I came across that style of preaching when we lived in New York. We were a part of a church that began to do that. They were moving away from, for lack of a better Word, extreme Pentecostal expression. And the pastor was trying to reel that in and started teaching exegetically. And they also believed in the gifts of the Spirit. So it was a really beautiful representation [00:02:47] Speaker A: of what the church should look. That would be a second place where we have some alignment is that we're not cessationist. We do believe in that the gifts biblically are alive and well in the church. We might differ some on how those are expressed or how normative they are, but we do see that as something that's not ended once and for all biblically. When you came in, was there hesitation about did you know where Southern Baptist at large kind of landed on women in ministry? I think we talked through it personally, some. But was that a barrier for you or. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Yes, and it still is. You and I did chat a lot through things, and you've been also very influential in my ministry. I remember I would text you, I'm not feeling well, but I have to preach. And you would just send encouragement. And so I thank you for that. But yeah, that has been a big barrier. We talked about it. And I remember I asked you a question. How do you think the women of your church, or I said something like, do you think the women of your church understand their purpose? Just a super generic question. And you said, well, what do you mean by that? And that was kind of like, oh, I don't. Why don't you understand that question? So I know that's thrown a lot out there, but that was kind of the start of, okay, well, what does it look like to serve and volunteer and be a part of this church? Because I'm used to preaching and teaching the Bible and I've seen men families walk out of a church service when I would go. So a lot of my ministry used to be traveling to different churches and preaching same. Yeah. And I don't really have a title for that, but that's what I was doing. And there would be families that would get up and walk out, and that's kind of an awkward start to your sermon. How do you. How do you get past that? [00:04:40] Speaker A: We recommend people read the bulletin or something, be prepared. Don't be surprised when you see who walks on stage. We don't do that at our church. We don't have lady preachers at our church. And so that's not happened at our church. But when you go into other settings, other congregations, I guess it catches them off guard and they're like, okay, I'm not going to sit under a lady teacher. Is that kind of what they're expressing. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you and I have talked through that because my husband and I and our family were members of the church. So I said, what do I do if I get invited to preach at a church on a Sunday and it's. The people are gathered and you and I have talked through that. I was like, would that put me in bad standing with the church? And I don't know if you want to share your response, but yeah. [00:05:22] Speaker A: No. Our position on that has been it's the church that has to make those type of decisions. So if you go in, I personally would not invite you to preach on the Lord's Day. We'll tell you. We'll unpack that in a moment. But if another minister in another congregation did that, I wouldn't forbid it either. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:45] Speaker A: And I can explain kind of how I get there. Most recently, we were texting back and forth over the SBC, and there was an amendment Dr. Mohler brought. Dr. Mohler is a friend. You know, He's a friend. Tell us a little bit also about your educational background. [00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was in the TV industry before I jumped in the ministry. So I have my undergrad in television, which I know we were really. [00:06:09] Speaker A: And another commonality. [00:06:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Radio and. Yeah. So I felt called into ministry when I was in that season of working in the entertainment industry when I was 24, and I didn't really know what to do with that. And then I got invited. I was at a mega church, for lack of a better word, we'll call it a mega church in Hollywood. And they invited me to lead one of their prayer meetings. And part of that was to teach the Bible. So that was the first time I kind of was thrown into this situation. And that really affirmed my calling for me because I could feel the Holy Spirit ministering through my gifts and through that experience and people's response, it was just beautiful. And so then I was like, well, what do I do with all this? So I went on a journey of figuring out what that looks like. Started in media ministry and then expanded into preaching and teaching and writing nonfiction Christian books. And in that journey, recently, I went to seminary and got my master's in Biblical and Theological Studies from Asbury Seminary. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Great. And, yeah, great. Have you kept up with the recent news on Asbury with umc? I'm thankful for them. They've made some good calls there, but it's cost them some, you know, but good school. I was pastored not far from Asbury when I was in Kentucky during seminary and I'm educated through Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Our church was founded in 1859. It was the year before Abraham Lincoln was inaugurated president. So, you know, we've. I think of it, you know, leading through Covid. I mean, can you imagine leading through the Civil War? You know, this island was occupied by Union soldiers. The pastor came from Princeton University. He was friends with Basil Manley Sr. Who founded the Southern Baptist Convention, one of the founders and, you know, the heritage there. He was one of the trustees of the North American Mission Board, Mendenhall. And so we've got a very established church. It's not from the outside because you're like a lot of our people, you're not natively Southern Baptist. Most of our people are not natively Southern Baptist. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Correct. [00:08:29] Speaker A: They grew up Catholic for the most part. [00:08:32] Speaker B: So did I. [00:08:32] Speaker A: Did you really? [00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I went through some of the sacraments. Tapped out in fourth grade. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Gotcha. [00:08:36] Speaker B: Got saved in Pentecostal Church. [00:08:38] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:39] Speaker A: And so coming in, do you feel like you walked into a traditional Southern Baptist church or non. Or how would you describe what you found at First Baptist? [00:08:50] Speaker B: I would describe it as very conservative in expression, which I love. Traditional. Based on what I've heard of Southern Baptists. I know there are extreme expressions on both sides of what the conservative expression can look like, where it can be unhealthy. And what I found at our church and why we love being there is because it's a healthy expression of conservative values. And there are dialogues like this. You're willing to sit down and talk through what it looks like. But you did bring up. I'm going to throw. I call this the mass chaos question. You did bring up how the Southern Baptist was formed, which you forgot to mention that it was formed on the fight to preserve slavery. Well, that's like a red flag. [00:09:39] Speaker A: Funding missions [00:09:41] Speaker B: because they didn't want to fund slaves. [00:09:44] Speaker A: No, no. They didn't want to fund missionaries who had slaves, or there were Baptists in the north who. Who would not want their money going to missionaries who owned slaves. So, you know, back at that time, we tend to think that the racial problems were in the South. The north was great with everything. It really wasn't that way. You know, most of the founding fathers had slaves. And so it was a trajectory worldwide that was taking place over slavery. And when the Southern Baptist Convention really began, it was over a particular missionary. Should they receive funding or not? The churches in the south believed that they should be funded because that question had not been settled. The churches in the north believed they shouldn't and so there was a divide there as we were formed, but it wasn't formed over slavery. And I would say as well, man, we've repented of that so many times as a convention publicly, there's probably no issue that you could look at among Southern Baptists that we've said we were wrong on more than that. And so there's no debate there. [00:11:08] Speaker B: Right. Well, the public repentance was in 1990, I think 1997. [00:11:13] Speaker A: And it's happened several times. [00:11:13] Speaker B: Something like that. Yeah. So to me, that's like. Okay. Acknowledging that it wasn't okay. [00:11:21] Speaker A: No, it wasn't okay. We were wrong. [00:11:22] Speaker B: So let's keep that in our mind as we continue this discussion. [00:11:25] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, no, we own that. We're totally. In fact, the book. I'm writing [00:11:32] Speaker B: historical fiction. [00:11:33] Speaker A: I'm historical fiction. My first historical fiction. I've researched the role in many of our Baptist churches, we had black and white. We had enslaved members in predominantly white congregations of Baptist, Southern Baptist churches. And communion was a dividing point because they would make the enslaved members wait till the end of communion. So the kind of. I don't want to give away the good parts of the book, but the role of communion, you know, if you go back in our historical section of the church and the B wing, we received a communion set from Jersey City after the Civil War. And so I asked people when I got there, where did that come from? And they said, well, there were soldiers that worshiped here during the war, and they gifted it to the church during Reconstruction. So telling that story, and how does communion bring enemies together, you know, otherwise north and south, black and white, whatever it might be, what does the cup, the common cup, what does it do to bring people who in the world would be opposed to one another to one table? And to me, that's a beautiful story. It's an ancient story that goes back to the Last Supper and Passover. So that's the heart of the book. I read a lot of Grail lore through it. Have you read Malcolm Gite at all? [00:13:08] Speaker B: I think that's the book you recommended for my kids, right? [00:13:12] Speaker A: Really, really recommend Galahad and the Grail, but it's a beautiful picture of redemption and how what is represented in communion is what brings peace between otherwise, what would be enemies? So I'm not telling that from the perspective of a divided church, and so had a lot of fun with it, but it's the other side of my brain from what I'm used to working. [00:13:40] Speaker B: I can now write fiction. Yeah, that's Amazing. [00:13:43] Speaker A: It really brought something out. I feel like I'm a different person on the other side of it. [00:13:48] Speaker B: That's great. [00:13:48] Speaker A: So we could talk more about that offline. Women in ministry. Let's establish a little bit and let's talk about, before we do that, our particular church, would you say? So our director of worship ministries, Jennifer, she will pray, she will exhort from stage occasionally. I would even say she teaches in song practically every week. Is that fair or is that. Do you disagree with that or. [00:14:30] Speaker B: I would say, for lack of a better word, she's the woman that we all see on a Sunday. Yes. Doing ministry activities. [00:14:39] Speaker A: Do you feel like she's got freedom to share words the Lord puts on her heart? I mean, I know you don't know [00:14:47] Speaker B: behind the scenes and I don't know her personally. And I also don't think, like, if you're saying share words, the Lord, I would consider that like a prophetic unction or an action. And I don't really see that happening at our church. So I would answer no to that. [00:15:01] Speaker A: Okay. I would probably challenge that a little bit. And some of that you would just have to know the person, I guess. But that's not scripted. Like what she walks up on stage with. We know what songs we're going to do. We know the general order. She can tag or pull an audible or whatever. But what she says, whether she's praying, whether she's transitioning between songs, exhorting during that time, that is, you know, that's not scripted. We don't approve that. She's got some liberty there to do that. So that might just be something interesting to be aware of about our congregation. [00:15:42] Speaker B: Wonderful. I did ask one of my kids a couple weeks ago. I was like, hey, when's the last time you remember a woman praying from the platform at our church? And he said, oh, I have no idea. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Well, now that's another thing, too. You're in the second service, aren't you? [00:16:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:00] Speaker A: So she's in the first service. So that would be one reason for that is the second service is led by John and it's going to have a little different. His whole approach is different in many ways. It's more of a modern band driven approach. So that might be part of the reason why your kids certainly wouldn't have heard it as much. I'm trying to think. I worship in the first service, so I see the second service online, but I can see what you mean there. That that's probably not as common in the second. You would think it'd be the opposite. [00:16:35] Speaker B: It's not as normal. And on Wednesday, I see Jennifer praying and leading. It's beautiful. So I'm not diminishing. I love how she's leading and what she's doing. [00:16:43] Speaker A: It probably would encourage you to see her ministry in the early service sometimes, just to give it a balance, at least a little bit, maybe a lady's voice. More often than you realize, week to week, that I see that I'm not as aware of what's happening in the second service. So that's a good point of understanding. I think that I may have a little different perspective on where we're at than you do, because we're worshiping in two different gatherings. Our church is in two worship services in two locations. So we've got Central Nassau is in two services. Our main campus is in two services. There's a lot of complications with that period. But when the resolution came or the amendment came across, you began speaking out on it more publicly during that, online, and it really didn't cause a stir. Nobody. I think our people know that we're cool with each other, so they're not. Nobody's thinking we're at odds. But I reached out to you and I said, this might be a good idea for us just to go on camera and talk about it so that people can see that we're friends and hash through some of the areas where we may not understand where the other person's coming from. You know, so that happened, and you don't. I think your words were, you don't want this to be kind of what you're known for. No, this is just what you're speaking to in the moment. [00:18:16] Speaker B: And I. And I just want to be able to do my job. [00:18:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Part of that, I guess, is defending that I have a job to do. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Okay, so let's start here. What bothered you about the Southern Baptist Amendment? [00:18:32] Speaker B: Well, I remember I texted you and I was like, show me the women in the room. And you sent me a picture of your beautiful family who are filled with women. But I was like, where are there women at the microphone that are trying to stand up for things? I don't really know the process, so we can talk through that, too. But I didn't hear any women raising questions. Is it called the debate where they have questions before? [00:18:55] Speaker A: It's a big business meeting, so it's one of the most entertaining things you'll ever witness is to go to the Southern Baptist Convention because you've got 20,000 people in a room. Anybody can go up to the mic, and there's six or eight mics that are live. And, you know, we follow Robert's rules of order, parliamentary procedure, the same way the Presbyterians or anybody else would. It's just. It's hard to conduct a meeting without rules. But. But yeah, motions, amendments, all that can be made just like in our. In a business meeting, in a local church. So at that one, if they didn't speak, if in the previous year. I'm trying to think where it was at in the previous year. There were women. There were women pastors who spoke. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember that. [00:19:46] Speaker A: And so it has happened in previous years. I don't remember it this year if any went up to speak to defend it or. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Correct. No women spoke. I asked if they're in the lineup. You confirmed they were not, which is fine. And then I started wondering how many messengers are actually women. So I don't know if you have stats on that. [00:20:02] Speaker A: No. And for hours, there were several that were women. It was mostly couples that went. So we can take 12 messengers for our size church. And I think all of them were couples. [00:20:16] Speaker B: So it was six female, six male. Okay, that's great. Let's get them on the microphone next time. So anyways, well, that's their prerogative. No, I know, I know. [00:20:26] Speaker A: But if they didn't go to the microphone, that's just because they didn't go to the microphone. [00:20:29] Speaker B: Okay, we'll take that out of the equation. The other thing that bothered me about watching the meeting was, was that somebody brought up a great question, which is a question I have, which is, what does it actually mean to function as a pastor? And he specifically said, I think it was if I have a woman in my church that's serving with the children. I can't remember a specific question, but it was something along those lines, is she functioning as a pastor? And then the response was, we can't answer that right now. So I don't know if that's how the meetings run. Like, you can't ask explanatory questions. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Some of the way the rules are written, the question that's up for debate, you've got to stick to that. So understanding Robert's Rules of Order is essential to moving anything in a group of that size. And occasionally what will happen is somebody will raise a question for clarity, and if that's not the part, like, they could come back to that at a latter time. But if that's not where we're at in the meeting, then it's called out of order. So it's not that it's out of order, that the question's a bad question, it's a fair question. I think that particular one was just raising it at the wrong time. If I remember correctly. [00:21:53] Speaker B: It was in the discussion of the amendment. Yeah, but still it seemed like it was raised at the right time. In theory, yeah. [00:22:02] Speaker A: It's complicated. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Okay. So I probably don't fully understand the structure of the. [00:22:05] Speaker A: And if you've ever been, if you've ever been to our business meetings at our church, we're kind of laid back about it and we don't follow the procedure to the. Because we've never had to, you know, in nine years we've been there, we've never had a bad business meeting. They're usually over before you know it. You know, they're just quick. There's not a lot of debate and discussion. We're typically like minded, so. But when you bring all these congregations together, you have a spectrum. You know, Southern Baptist people presume we're all on the same page. Well, we're not. There's a spectrum of, you know, SBC and conservatism and all that. So. But, but yeah, it's what we're doing now. We don't have to follow those procedures. So we can talk about function. Now, I'll tell you what, the debate that Mohler brought, what I liked about it and what I didn't like about it, Okay. I wish the function issue had been left out. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Agree. [00:23:03] Speaker A: Okay. But the reason I can still vote for the amendment is that it wasn't defined. So technically it's not wrong. What he said, what he's trying to avoid is where you and I would agree that the overseer of the church is limited to qualified, biblically qualified males. Is that agreed? [00:23:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:32] Speaker A: So what he's trying to avoid is someone skirting that issue by saying, well, we'll just call them by another name, let them do the same, still be the overseer of the church, but call them by a different name. And he's saying, no. If they function as the overseer of the church, then they're violating the amendment. Now the problem with it and the blessing of it is it's not defined. So the next between votes, he was interviewed on a podcast and one of the questions, if I remember correctly, was about Josh Alberton's church. Josh is a very popular pastor in Texas. His wife comes on the podcast and they do what we're doing here. They just talk about Sunday and she gives some application and implication for ladies. I see no issue with that at all. Moeller did. So he clarified that he doesn't like that or doesn't prefer that. He and I would differ there. I don't see any issue at all on the podcast. So the people are interpreting function based upon his off staged remarks. The fact that functions in the amendment, but it wasn't defined to me, leaves that up to the congregation. So is there any, if we're talking about issues like serving communion that's not defined, Can a lady serve communion in a local church, at a Southern Baptist church based upon that amendment? We don't know. Is that a pastoral duty? Is that a deacon duty? And I would say the local congregation has to determine that. So the fact that he did not define it gives me grounds for saying, okay, if we're not going to define it, I may agree with that. But if you go to hash it out and define it and say, well, ladies can't lead music, ladies can't do this, then we're going to have some differences there and it should have differences there. Does that make any sense? [00:25:38] Speaker B: It makes sense and I think they're valid points because you're a healthy man that cares about following what the Bible says and honoring other people. But if a church that is unhealthy or extreme in expression, for example, women have to be silent and sit down. And I've gotten a lot of comments on things that I need to go home and ask my husband stuff because I'm not qualified to even discuss this topic. So I've seen extreme expressions of that. And that can be extremely damaging. And if we keep, if the word function is kept, in my fear is that unhealthy representations of what that looks like is going to be damaging towards women and their voices and even not only women in ministry, but households as well. So I think the amendment should have left out the word function as well as pastor, because I have a different interpretation. I think the three words are different. Elder, pastor, overseer, Elder pastor is a gift found in Ephesians 4:11. It's a noun. It's the only time it's represented is in that string of giftings, service and ministry. So to me, that's a different word entirely. So leave out the word. If it was my dream amendment, leave out the word pastor, leave out the word function, and also affirm and endorse. Are you affirming me right now because I'm on your podcast, I'm an ordained minister. So now are you going to have to be kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention? These Are the bigger questions that those words being in the amendment are bringing about? [00:27:11] Speaker A: Okay, yeah. So the good thing is we don't build our lives on bylaws. [00:27:19] Speaker B: Right? [00:27:19] Speaker A: We go to the Scriptures and we live and die by the truth. Bylaws are not infallible. They're not inerrant. They're always evolving. The interesting thing, this would go back to Nicaea, the early creeds of the church, they're reactionary. And I do think this is pertinent to the conversation. In 2000, the church was just beginning to deal with things like the same sex marriage, LGBTQ rights and that sort of thing. So there was nothing in our statement of faith about that. So in 2000, when the BFM, the Baptist Faith of Message was updated from 1964, it added those, those clauses, those amendments to it. Every creed has been reactionary. It's like something arises in the church that requires the church to come together and say, this is our position. We're affirming and denying with clarity so that we can move together, move past the issue, move forward. If you go back to the 60s, when the previous BFM was in 64, I think when that one was pinned, somewhere around 2% of churches in the United States had ladies with the title of pastor. Today, that's radically shifted. I think the most recent study that I looked at, 80% were okay with it. Somewhere around 50% of M. Div. Students are ladies right now. And that's all happened within the last. I think it's about 12 years. So something has radically shifted to where suddenly, historically, as a church, we've never dealt with this issue. And so now we're. We're being forced to deal with it because of a shift. Now also, I think it's worth mentioning outside the Southern Baptist movement, in our own town here, locally, the mainline churches, there are no male pastors in the mainline churches. So simultaneously, what we've observed is as this progression happens, there seems to be a correlation between an interpretation that would allow for female pastors and I mean by that overseer. So that would be a point of disagreement that I do believe it means overseer. So there would be a correlation between the trajectory of a female pastor followed by more Marxist, more LGBTQ affirming churches. So the hermeneutic that took one down that road is a lead indicator. Now, I'm not saying that that's where you're going. And I know that we have people specifically in the more charismatic movement. They're nowhere, considering those things that would have a lady pastor or lady preacher. But in the mainline denominations, that's been typical. You'll see a vote to affirm ladies as elders, ladies as pastors. Six to ten years later, pride flags are going up. Gay marriages are happening. Those debates are taking place. They're taking place right here. That's a very common thing. So the lead indicator is something that I think Baptists are aware of. We're the only denomination or convention of our age that has not progressed more and more liberal. There was a resurgence in the 70s and 80s that brought us back to conservative positions. And so there's a sense in which. Follow the conversation. There's been this surge of ladies in ministry in our sister denominations that was followed by a surge in lgbtq, gay affirming, same sex marriage affirming movements that we're wanting to avoid. So that's where I think the men and women of our denomination or convention felt it would be helpful to get some clarity on the issue before it goes any further. Does that make sense, that logic, apart from scripturally? We'll hash it out. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I understand the theories behind it, but it's. I hate the word nuance, and I'm going to say it. It's more nuanced than that. Women are not being offered ministry jobs. Women are not getting paid the same as men. There's ministry displacement for women. So if I wanted to work on staff at a church using the gifts that the Lord has given me, where. Where do I fit in? So either extreme. Not extreme, either Pentecostal, which I love the Pentecostal. They're the biggest denomination in Christianity. Right. So I can, I can fit in there or if I want to do something locally. I have seen job opportunities for the churches that do affirm lgbtq, but I, I don't fit in with that stance. So the problem is I want to carry these conservative values, and I do, but I've been displaced in ministry, so that's a fact. So women who want to serve and I'm. This is a generic statement. It's not applicable to every situation we've been talking about. But women who want to serve in the church, are they going to walk in their gifts and what does that look like? If they fit in and now it's this progressive expression, then maybe they're just landing there for the sake of. I feel so called to do this. I'm going to do it. [00:33:34] Speaker A: That's fair. But let's look at it this way. If we were, do you think that would be different historically in the church, like beyond the 1960s, if you. At any time in church history over 2,000 years, do you not think women would have been displaced in the same way or to a greater degree? [00:33:53] Speaker B: Historically, women were also displaced. After the Southern Baptists changed their view on slavery or repented from their view on slavery. Then the direction, from what I've read, and you can tell me if this is wrong, but from then, the direction of that women started not working on ministry and staff at churches, Southern Baptist churches and things like that. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Because now I'm thinking a little more first century first. You know, if we look at the church fathers, like, we don't have the writings of the church mothers. You know, if you look back from anything I've read historically in the church over 2,000 years, that was just the norm. And there's a reason for that, is what I'm suggesting is that that was what we inherited from Scripture. And so you go back to first century. Do you think that if you walked into the average church at Corinth or the church at Ephesus, do you think you would have saw a lady in the pulpit, typically in those churches? [00:34:57] Speaker B: I think of. Pause. Let me look something up. [00:35:06] Speaker A: And beyond that, if we went back to the Old Testament, and I guess what I'm saying is the trajectory is the culture has changed. The Southern Baptists have not changed is what I'm suggesting. So if you go back to the Old Testament, could a lady be a priest of Israel? [00:35:31] Speaker B: No. Well, I have an answer. So I believe Phoebe literally brought Paul's letter. [00:35:39] Speaker A: I agree. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Of Romans, typically, that means she was also teaching the letter. [00:35:44] Speaker A: But we don't know that. And there's nothing in the letter that states that. I agree. [00:35:48] Speaker B: But scholars, if you do an interpretation of what that means, wouldn't you agree that most likely she was teaching that letter? [00:35:54] Speaker A: No, I disagree with that. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Okay, so I disagree. So in my theory and viewpoint, she was in a pulpit church, like a home church. Right. Teaching to both men and women. [00:36:05] Speaker A: But that's speculative. You know, we don't have anything. You know, I can produce scholarship on both sides of it. I really can. Because that's a fair point. And it does appear that Phoebe delivered the letter to the Romans, to the church in Rome, however. Yeah, I don't give grounds on that. She was the one expositing the letter or explaining the letter. I know where that comes from, but I don't see. I think that's speculative. There's no way to know that. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Okay, so I have my notes here. If anyone's wondering what's happening, we have Anna, a prophet. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:42] Speaker B: Called a prophet, noun prophet. From the gifts of Ephesians 4:11. It says she was at the temple and began to give thanks to God and speak of him to all who are waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem. [00:36:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:54] Speaker B: So who is she speaking to? All. All the people. Right. So that's a woman telling all the people about the Lord. Right. [00:37:00] Speaker A: But the idea of a prophet, again, that's a function. Would you agree? [00:37:07] Speaker B: Not this definition. There are also. It says women. Women were prophesying. This is the noun prophet. So I would say that's a title. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Well, but what was the qualification for a prophet then in the Old Testament, [00:37:20] Speaker B: so called by God? [00:37:24] Speaker A: Well, what I'm suggesting is like when we come to the New Testament and if we talk about apostles, would you agree there were capital A apostles and then the word apostle was used as a function differently as a lowercase a. And there were specific qualifications attached to it. Visibly seeing the risen Jesus being called by him personally. There were specific qualifications that made Paul qualified to be an apostle, but myself not qualified to be an apostle, for example. [00:37:58] Speaker B: I agree with that. [00:37:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So in the Old Testament, when it comes to an office like priests, there were specific qualifications given. They had to be of certain tribes. It could not be the females of that tribe. There were no female priests in Israel. [00:38:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:14] Speaker A: When it came to functioning as a judge, we know Deborah was a judge. So in that particular office, we can agree that a lady obviously could be raised up as a judge. A lady obviously could be raised up as a prophet at times. And you, you know, said that. So I would say that's the same today. And you might fit into that category of a lady that's raised up for this function when it comes to the office, that's where. And I think we agree on that, that the office is limited to men. The office of the overseer is limited to men. But the function, I have no problem with that. That you can prophesy. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:56] Speaker A: And by that I mean speak forth the word. [00:39:00] Speaker B: Agreed. There's two things I'm thinking of when we talk about qualifications. I think there needs to be some interpretation of what that looks like. So if we're talking about, or even talking about the office, the New Testament really only has two titles that are office positions. And I'd like to see if you agree, which is overseer, elder. So for the sake of our discussion, can we remove pastor from that? [00:39:26] Speaker A: Sure. [00:39:26] Speaker B: Okay. Overseer, elder and then deacon. [00:39:30] Speaker A: I would disagree slightly. I think But I also disagree with SBC on this. I think that they've taken evangelists out of that mix. And I think there was a broader. An office there for an evangelist in the listing is at Ephesians, where he says pastors, teachers, apostles, prophets, evangelists are all listed there. [00:39:51] Speaker B: Those are titles, those are nouns, which I already brought up. And you were like, no, those are functions. [00:39:54] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. I'm saying that there are. There are offices that qualifications aren't attached to. [00:40:02] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Does that make a difference? [00:40:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:40:04] Speaker A: So, like. So you as an evangelist, I have no problem with. Because there's no. There's no quality. We're not given boundaries to that. [00:40:13] Speaker B: So are you saying the God given gifts, the service, gifts of ministry, which is apostle, prophet. You already mentioned them. Evangelist, teacher, shepherd, Those are also offices. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Yes. Without qualifications attached. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:31] Speaker A: Unless we're talking about capital A apostle. Okay. If we're talking capital A apostle, I don't think that's an ongoing office that's still, you know, operative in the church today because nobody's qualified for that. I don't think that Jesus is. Is giving further scripture that's authoritative in all the churches. I think the canon's closed. But when it comes down to the meaning of the word as a messenger, when we talk about an evangelist being the bearer of the evangel, the gospel, the first people to declare Christ is risen were women. I have no problem with that. And they're preaching it to men. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:13] Speaker A: So I don't. [00:41:13] Speaker B: But they're not called noun evangelists. But they're demonstrating the function of evangelists. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Well, I would say both. I don't have a problem going, but there's nowhere. [00:41:23] Speaker B: No, I hear what you're saying, and I agree with that, but just for the sake of our discussion on women and ministry, there is no word capital E. These women are evangelists. That's attached to that. [00:41:33] Speaker A: Why not? [00:41:34] Speaker B: I mean. You mean in the text? In the biblical text, just as there's no pastor capital P attached to. [00:41:41] Speaker A: Well, that's just not the way that the Greek language worked. You know, we didn't have capital, capital and lowercase. It wasn't written that way. The Greek language did not specify the difference. And I think that's part of the barrier of communication. You know, why some people would see pastor, bishop, overseer, elder, all as the same office and others wouldn't. Those things are a little bit complicated in the text. But for me, since we're the two people here, I'm okay with saying there's an office of Evangelists that can be filled by man or a woman because we're not given the qualifications for it. Same would be true. The way that would function in the Southern Baptist context would be a missionary. So we have probably as many lady missionaries as we do men. Our missionary offerings are named after Annie Armstrong and Lottie Moon. I would say that's biblically more of an evangelist. I don't think the word missionary is a biblical term. I know why we use it, but I would prefer to stick to the biblical terms and call it the office of evangelist. And that's a church planter. That's somebody that's working with people who are not believers. So I have no problem with that. I have no problem with a lady, in a sense, being a preacher. Okay, let's say if you're going and you're going to write, you're going to speak in conferences, I personally don't have a problem with that. And that's why I've never said, you know, you're not going to have any grief for me for doing that. I do see something different that takes place on the Lord's Day when we're gathered together for Lord's Day worship. I do think we're given parameters to operate in that would prohibit you from preaching in Lord's Day worship. So do you agree or disagree with that? [00:43:45] Speaker B: I disagree. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Okay, well, can I unpack where I'm coming from on it? Biblically, yes. And I'm getting old, so I'm having to wear my glasses. In 1 Corinthians 14, we'll start verse 33. For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints. The women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission. As the law also says, if there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful. It is shameful for a woman to speak in church. So that last part of verse 35, it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. That has to mean something. Would you agree? [00:44:41] Speaker B: Of course. [00:44:42] Speaker A: What does it mean? [00:44:44] Speaker B: Well, I'm looking at the situation of it. So it means something different than I think you're looking for. [00:44:51] Speaker A: What do you think it means? [00:44:53] Speaker B: I think it's talking about that women weren't educated as men were. So I think it's a situational. The context here is situational. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Even Phoebe? [00:45:05] Speaker B: What do you mean? I never said Phoebe was situational. What do you mean by that? [00:45:09] Speaker A: Well, he says all the Churches. If he says all the women in all the churches were uneducated, is that your position? [00:45:17] Speaker B: It was culturally the norm, yes. [00:45:21] Speaker A: Okay, so in the first century, would you agree that Paul is saying all the women in all the churches should not be preaching? [00:45:30] Speaker B: I think he said that in the text. But if we look at the totality of Scripture, that wasn't the case. Because like you mentioned, Phoebe was. Well, how come you're saying Phoebe was preaching when you earlier. [00:45:44] Speaker A: I'm saying she was educated. [00:45:45] Speaker B: Okay. Phoebe was educated. [00:45:48] Speaker A: She was a wealthy individual that was capable of delivering the letter to Rome, had business there. [00:45:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:58] Speaker A: So that would, for me, that would say she's educated, yet forbidden to authoritatively preach in the church. And as far as him saying it was shameful for her to do so, as the law also says. So we could argue about what it doesn't mean, but I think what we're trying to dial into is what does it mean? It means something. And I'm suggesting that when he's referring back to the Old Testament, he's showing that this is the norm of Israel, that the offices that had qualifications attached to them were limited to men in the law in the Old Testament. The same is true in the New Testament. And therefore, now, what I don't believe he's saying, when he's saying speak, I don't believe that means that if you go in and you say good morning in church, that you're violating this verse. Because in this same book, he's going to give order for how women should pray and prophesy. [00:47:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:11] Speaker A: So there's a sense in which Paul is saying it's shameful for a woman to speak in church. Now, we're not talking about in the coffee shop or on the podcast. We're talking about Lord's Day worship, gathered worship with boundaries and order. He's not a God of confusion. He started with in church, on the Lord's Day, it's shameful for a woman to speak. And I believe that means to exposit the text, to speak authoritatively for her to pray or prophesy. What we would say happens during the ministry time or in group time. There's a place for that. But for. I believe that he's limiting that function to the office of the overseer Elder. [00:48:07] Speaker B: I don't know how you get the translation that this was expositing the text. [00:48:14] Speaker A: If it's not fair when it's saying, [00:48:15] Speaker B: go ask your husband, because you don't know stuff. You need to not obviously, who wants to yell out and cause Mass chaos. That's embarrassing. That would be shameful. Could you imagine. [00:48:25] Speaker A: Oh, I know. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Matt. What does that mean? You'd be like, what is happening? [00:48:30] Speaker A: If it doesn't mean what I suggest it means, then you shouldn't say good morning either. [00:48:36] Speaker B: Right. That's why this. I don't. I believe this is a situational text. And if you also look at first Timothy 2, that was very culturally speaking to the cultural situation of that day. [00:48:48] Speaker A: Do you not wrestle with both of those passages being grounded in creation? [00:48:54] Speaker B: Well, you did leave me on a cliffhanger. Before I get to that, you left me on a cliffhanger with, as in all the churches of the saints. So I'm gonna go study that. So I'm gonna hold that loosely, but I still want to state that I think it's a situational context and grounded in scripture. Let me. I mean grounded in creation. [00:49:14] Speaker A: And I'm referring to the second Timothy. Ergo. [00:49:17] Speaker B: Yeah. First Timothy two. So just do you know the. I'm sure you do. You're fairy wise. The cultural context of Ephesus and Artemis and all of that. [00:49:35] Speaker A: I do, but I think Paul knew it better than both of us. Yes, and if he wanted to ground it in that, he could have. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Well, he did, because. Let me. I'm just searching through my notes. Let the record show 33 questions, guys, means 600 pages of notes. We can edit that out. Hold on, let me find. Give me a second here. [00:49:59] Speaker A: Okay, so specifically what passage are you referring to? [00:50:03] Speaker B: We are talking about First Timothy 2, 9, 15, which is similar to Let [00:50:09] Speaker A: a woman learn silently. [00:50:11] Speaker B: So the full. So if we start at verse nine, it's talking about what a woman is to wear. Right. And then it goes into let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness, which we've heard. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. She is to remain quiet. And then verse 13, which you brought up about the creation for Adam was formed first, then Eve and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgression. And then it's like this softball of a. What are you talking about? Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love the holiness with self control. So how do we justify this connected to First Corinthians in what I've studied is that this is connected to Artemis being a, in our terminology, false God. They are worshiping a false God. Greek mythology. They built a huge temple. There were also in the same time frame. I'll say it funny. There were really rich women who were theologically wrong and deceiving people, going around teaching, throwing their money around, having a lot of leverage and influence in this community. So that alone is Paul speaking to that, touching on deception. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Wait, wait. [00:51:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:51:36] Speaker A: You have to admit that's highly subject. Like you're reading. You're doing eisegesis there. You're reading into the text. You're not pulling that from the text at all. [00:51:46] Speaker B: But in order to study the text, you have to understand the culture of the day. [00:51:50] Speaker A: You do. [00:51:51] Speaker B: So I'm understanding the culture of the day. [00:51:52] Speaker A: But it's a pastoral epistle as well. He's writing this. This is written to Timothy. This is a young man who's going to, you know, this letter is to me as much as it is to Timothy. And if Paul wanted to say, well, you know, the situation in Ephesus is weird, therefore we're going to make, you know, going to have some rules for Ephesus we don't have for everybody else. Do you agree, at the very least, that the women were not to preach in Ephesus according to this text? [00:52:23] Speaker B: The uneducated women? Yes. [00:52:25] Speaker A: So you think that's what Paul is, this great communicator, this brilliant spirit filled under the inspiration of God himself? Do you think that's what he's trying to communicate there? That's as good as he could say it, yes. [00:52:40] Speaker B: Do you think he's trying to tell me that I have to be silent in my household? [00:52:43] Speaker A: No, I think he's trying to say you can't preach at church on the Lord's day worship. [00:52:46] Speaker B: No, no, I understand your interpretation. I think this is situational. [00:52:56] Speaker A: I think if he did not have, like, first of all, I'm saying, you know, we could apply that to a lot of text. We could take the teeth out of a lot of text by saying it's situational. And I think that's what opens the door for the LGBTQ stuff. They would come back and say, well, you know, Jesus never addressed it, so, you know, that's the danger of that. Hermeneutic. But I think here, he doesn't let us even go there because he grounds it in creation, which also [00:53:31] Speaker B: relates to the Ephesus culture of that day. So, Artemis, I don't know. This one's a softball, but I'll throw it out there. One theory is that in Greek mythology, she was a twin. She was born first, and then she helped deliver her twin brother. So maybe, maybe. And I'll disregard this, but this is just a thought. Maybe that's why he's mentioning Adam was born first. Okay, ignore that. But that was a theory of that time frame. The second is that Paul can also appeal to Scripture, but still address specific situations. Because if we look at Romans and the food stuff, right? If we look at the laws, if we look at Timothy and Titus around bondservants, is that not situational? No. [00:54:20] Speaker A: I don't understand the correlation. You unpack it a little bit more for me. [00:54:24] Speaker B: The correlation is that I'm trying to bring up how we're putting some verses as a situational context that makes sense. [00:54:34] Speaker A: So if he said, let's say, for example, one should not eat meat sacrificed to idols because of creation. We know in Genesis, yada, yada, yada, then we would. He's grounding it in creation. He didn't do it there. He grounded it in context. He grounded it in the conflict between the Gentiles and the Jews. And that's one of those weird things where he gave a lot of liberty. And he said, there are some situations where you should eat the meat. There are other situations where you shouldn't eat the meat. And it is entirely situational. He made that clear. He's a phenomenally brilliant communicator, you know. So that would be my argument would be he's such a good communicator that he wanted it. If he wanted this to be situational, he really did a pitiful job in making it situational. It seems to me he wants it to be rooted in creation for whatever reason. I don't even fully comprehend it. But that does seem to be the argument. Beyond that, I would say, historically, that's the way the church has interpreted it. Until 1960, the Women's Live movement started gaining ground in evangelical circles. So the weight of church history has looked at it this way. This is not a new phenomenon. [00:55:54] Speaker B: So I found this quote by early Christian theologian Gregory Avenisi. Did I say, is that right? [00:56:01] Speaker A: I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with him. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Okay. He interpreted this creation passage. He said, eve made herself at the beginning a minister and an advocate to her husband of the counsels of the serpent, she brought into human life and beginning of evil and its train of consequences. So therefore, by ministering to his disciples the words of him, Christ, who sleeved the rebel dragon so he might come to men and guide them in faith, where whereby the good reason, the first proclamation of death annulled. So he. What he's saying is he's bringing into account the total the totality of redemption history, which is the whole story of Scripture. So if we were to take that quote and which I know we're not supposed. Scripture should define scripture. So this isn't scripture. This is. But you brought up church history. [00:56:47] Speaker A: Well, he's, he's expounding on and I'm not disagreeing with what he's saying, that, that for whatever reason, I think the emphasis of what Paul is saying in this text is Eve was deceived, Adam transgressed. Knowingly, he knew what this would cost. He knew the cosmic rebellion. Eve was deceived into it. Now, for whatever reason, he grounded it in that instance. So I don't believe that that's necessarily saying. Some would say that means women are more gullible. I don't believe he's making that point here. I think this is part of the creative order and part of the trajectory of the fall. And so he goes on when he says they're to be saved through childbearing, we both agree, where did that come from? I believe that the seed of God came through the woman and the Messiah, that the bearing of Messiah is ultimately what saves both men and women. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Also, though culturally, Artemis was worshiped as a deity who helped women give birth and not be in pain. I agree with the Jesus translation, but I'm also just saying culturally, I'm telling [00:58:04] Speaker A: you, Jenny, I just can't give. And this may be where we just have to, you know, lovingly disagree. I think you can read some weird fact into anything to make it mean nothing or make it mean what we want it to mean. And I think we're limited as we approach holy Scripture to what the actual text says. There's no authority in any of these people that you're quoting that gives us the historical context. There's no authority in it. I'm not denying that there's actually truth to it. But the authoritative language that we're limited to is what the text says and it has to mean something. And if Paul wanted to convey that this is a one off, if he were trying to say that, you know, in most churches, women and men totally both could serve as overseers, they both could preach on the Lord's day, there's no difference. I think he could have made that clearer. As good of a communicator as Paul is, if he's making the point that you're making, I've overestimated his abilities because this is pitiful. If he's trying to communicate that it's just normal, then this is a very Poor way to do it. [00:59:22] Speaker B: In the Greek language, he's saying women are deceived, therefore, because they don't have the education which is within that time frame. So to me, I hear what you're saying and I understand it. But I also think the cultural relevance of the situation, just as I mean, if you look at the bond, servants and people having to obey their masters, similar situation. [00:59:51] Speaker A: But that wasn't rooted in creation. That was a cultural norm. [00:59:57] Speaker B: But the rooted in creation is like a certain. So I view it as like, oh, here's a sermon illustration of what I mean by that. Let's look at Adam and Eve, right. Like, so she was also deceived, which I'm. I'm fine with men leading women and being elders and my husband having the final say in our home because he's healthy. In expression of that, I'm. I'm totally fine. But what I'm not fine with is men who abuse women. And we can agree on this. Abuse women, verbally assault them, ignore callings, put them in their place, are physically abusive, spiritually abusive. When this passage is used in an extreme expression, both this and the other First Corinthians passage. So I think we have to hold it before the Lord. And of course Scripture is authoritative. I believe that to be true. So now I'm talking about to this Scripture playing out on a practical level. I guess I'm kind of moving the conversation a little. [01:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And I don't think we're going to have any disagreement there practically. I think I would be curious to know if you think that the ground rules for what happens in the gathered Lord's Day worship is different from what happens in any gathering of Christians in a coffee shop. I would say they're very different. [01:01:23] Speaker B: There's a sacredness to a gathered service, of course. [01:01:26] Speaker A: And so anything that I'm saying is limited to that. The total congregation coming together for Lord's Day worship, where you're going to observe the ordinances, you're going to preach the gospel, you're going to exposit the scripture, you're going to pray that there's orderliness to it that we're given. That doesn't apply, let's say to Apollos being corrected by Priscilla and Aquila. You know, that's not Lord's Day worship. They're doing something different there. And I think that's entirely appropriate. If I'm out of bounds scripturally about anything and you come to me and you say, hey, Pastor, I think you're wrong on this. You have every right to do that. I don't think scripture forbids you at all to do that. However, you'll have to bring to me the scriptures just like a man would. There's no difference there. We're equal in that. But if it's Lord's day, worship again, and I look at it like it's not the kind of thing I even completely comprehend or understand. And I didn't make the rules, but I think there are rules that we're subject to the same way in the Christian home. How does this work out? If you are subject in the home to Matt's headship and you would agree with that, correct? That that means something? [01:02:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:48] Speaker A: Okay. How can you be in the church in a position of authority over Matt if he's in the home, your head, how does that work? [01:03:11] Speaker B: I would not be in a position. A position of authority over him. Okay. If, say we use my language of, say we use the noun pastor. A woman's a pastor. Is that what you're referring to? If I was a pastor at a church, I'd be over him? [01:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess. And we're in agreement there that that couldn't work. [01:03:28] Speaker B: That could work because there would be an elder man who was overseeing the pastoral role. [01:03:35] Speaker A: Oh, by your definition with pastor, I [01:03:37] Speaker B: got you in what I'm seeing. So the best view, the view that I agree with in church governance and things like that, I guess what I most align with Church of God, which we talked about off camera, Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee. Is that correct? And they have pastors male and female. My friend who pastors in that also said that some females are also senior pastors. And then they have male elders or bishops who are overseeing on the regional, state, and national. So they're the ones. [01:04:11] Speaker A: Their ecclesiology's a little different. [01:04:13] Speaker B: I like that Pentecostal view of that interpretation of. [01:04:16] Speaker A: They probably use that word the way we would use director or minister or something to that effect. [01:04:23] Speaker B: No, they're using the word as pastor. [01:04:24] Speaker A: But they don't mean it limited to the elder qualifications, do they? [01:04:31] Speaker B: I'm assuming. I'm assuming. I would assume. No, they're not doing the elder qualifications because, I mean, obviously they're doing this pastor shepherding the people. [01:04:39] Speaker A: Right. And so we would put that. We would say that could be a lady in our church as well. We wouldn't use the term pastor. We would use the term director, typically. So that would be, you know, we would have over ladies ministry. We could have a lady over ladies ministry. We have ladies on our Stewardship team, our personnel team. We have ladies who are over children's ministries and things like that. We have situations. [01:05:09] Speaker B: They're shepherding the people. So they're functioning. They're functioning as a pastor. So there's the problem. [01:05:15] Speaker A: They're not making doctrinal decisions. [01:05:17] Speaker B: But that's elder. That's. [01:05:20] Speaker A: We're using the term different, and that's fair. [01:05:22] Speaker B: That's the problem. [01:05:23] Speaker A: It is a little bit of the issue. I'm limited. That was a decision that was made a long time ago in Southern Baptist circles. And it's not because we want to nail down what pastor means. It's more because we want to nail down what bishop and elder mean, but because those words are used differently in other contexts. The autonomy of a Baptist church means that bishop, our state director, has no authority over our church. Does that make sense? In another denomination that would be a bishop who does have authority. So our clarification on. We see all of those as one office. That's what I'm operating from. And you're operating from different place. So part of that is semantics. I get that. [01:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah. I do have a question on deacons. So there are qualifications for deacons as well as elders in the Timothy passages in Titus. Do you view women can be deacons? [01:06:22] Speaker A: I understand the argument for it. MacArthur would have female deacons in his church. I don't understand how he gets there, because the qualifications are the same, except for the aptitude. Just the only difference. [01:06:38] Speaker B: So you would say no? [01:06:39] Speaker A: I would say no. And I know where you're going, that there are ladies that are described as Diaconos, but there are unbelievers described as Diaconos in the text as well. So that shows us that there are times when someone can be a servant, a diaconus, but not in the office of a deacon. Therefore, I would suggest that the ladies are serving their faithful diakonos of the church. They're serving the church. And if a king has a diakonos on his staff or whatever, that doesn't mean that they're holding an office at the church. It's opening up the word to mean something more broad. [01:07:18] Speaker B: So I would argue that Phoebe was actually in the office of deacon based on how it's written. So then my assumption is that we don't have any female deacons at our church. [01:07:29] Speaker A: No. [01:07:29] Speaker B: Okay, I disagree. Boo. [01:07:32] Speaker A: Well, why? I mean. [01:07:33] Speaker B: But do you want me to be the first one? I'm just kidding. [01:07:35] Speaker A: No, I mean, what would be a hard sell on that? If you wanted to say Phoebe was Described as a word that's broadly used as servant. How does that bring you to the. Then you read the qualifications of deacon, and they're the husband of one wife, and they're referred to consistently in the masculine. How do you forcibly say, because deacon is attached to Phoebe in this one instance, that she must have held that office? [01:08:14] Speaker B: Let's see here. [01:08:15] Speaker A: I mean, that seems like a stretch. [01:08:19] Speaker B: No, no, no. I have a chart. Just wait for it. I have done my homework. I just have to find it. Hold on here, give me a second. Edit this out. [01:08:33] Speaker A: The word angel. I would say if you take the angel at the church at Ephesus rite, in the same way that angels. You know, we're not real sure who he was talking about there. Was he talking about a person? Was he talking about a literal angel? Why would he write a letter to an angel if he means capital, A. A different species of being? That doesn't make sense. So I would presume he's using that phrase more broadly, the angel as a messenger of God. [01:09:09] Speaker B: What passage are you referencing? [01:09:11] Speaker A: Revelation. You know, and he's writing to the seven churches. Oh, no, what I'm talking about is the word Angelos in Revelation. I'm making the point that Scripture frequently interchanges an office for a function. So Angelos, when he's writing to the seven churches of Asia Minor in Revelation, I believe he's probably talking to someone who's functioning as a messenger of that church. This is a person who's going to deliver the message to that church. This is not a holy angel. That's a ministering spirit. Right, but in the same way with Phoebe, just because he uses the word, she's a faithful servant. I don't think we're forced by that usage to presume that she's holding the office of deacon. [01:10:07] Speaker B: She. Well, she was recognized as a church leader in Romans 16:1 2, where as [01:10:13] Speaker A: a faithful servant of the church, it [01:10:14] Speaker B: says a deacon of the church. And then that same word, if you were to. Let's see [01:10:24] Speaker A: if you. [01:10:24] Speaker B: That same term is used in function. So we see Deacon Matthew 20:26 as a servant. We see this translated to service and ministry in Acts 6:1 6. Overseers and deacons are clumped together in Philippians. Then we see the deacon qualifications in First Timothy 3, which is written. Which we can. We probably disagree on this, but it's a sandwich structure which I can get to. And then we see Paul as a minister using that word in Colossians 1:25. So there are differences in how it's expressed whether function or title. Which is. If you were to study all those ones I just mentioned, Phoebe is clearly title. A deacon. [01:11:04] Speaker A: How do you get that? [01:11:06] Speaker B: Just how I said it. I studied all the translations of the word. No, no, no. [01:11:10] Speaker A: We say it's interchangeable. She's called a diaconus, right? [01:11:14] Speaker B: Yes. So. [01:11:16] Speaker A: And we agree that it's used interchangeably as title or function, right? [01:11:22] Speaker B: Mm. [01:11:23] Speaker A: And there are times when even unbelievers are called diakonos. [01:11:27] Speaker B: But she's held in the recognized ministry role. It's not that she's an unbeliever. [01:11:33] Speaker A: She's mentioned as a faithful servant, like, so. There's ambiguity there, I would say. [01:11:40] Speaker B: No, but Paul is mentioning her multiple times as a leader in the church. [01:11:46] Speaker A: He doesn't use that word. He uses servants of the church. [01:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yes. [01:11:51] Speaker A: So. [01:11:52] Speaker B: So that. He's publicly commending her. That. But you're. You're asking me, basically, you're like, why? How do we know she's a Christian? [01:11:59] Speaker A: No, how do we know she's a deacon? [01:12:01] Speaker B: No, I know, but you're saying people use that word for non Christians and this and that. So I'm saying we know. Here's proof she's a Christian. [01:12:08] Speaker A: Here's the way I would. [01:12:09] Speaker B: Leading in the church. [01:12:11] Speaker A: But you're adding that to it. [01:12:14] Speaker B: No, she delivered. We already said she delivered the letter to Romans. Isn't that a leadership position? You can't just trust anyone. Come on. [01:12:23] Speaker A: No, really, I'm looking at it going, here's the way I would. [01:12:26] Speaker B: This is the way, Pastor Zach. [01:12:27] Speaker A: This is the way I would approach it. I would say if you look at it and you see, okay, the word Diaconos is applied to Phoebe. It appears Phoebe delivered this letter to the Roman church like she hand delivered it. Correct? We agree on that. [01:12:40] Speaker B: Yes. [01:12:42] Speaker A: And we're trying to decide if she held the office in Ephesus of deacon. Is that what you're suggesting? [01:12:48] Speaker B: Yes. [01:12:49] Speaker A: Or Corinth. He's writing from Corinth. [01:12:51] Speaker B: Yes. [01:12:52] Speaker A: So in Corinth, he's made it explicitly clear that these women are uneducated and they're not to speak. You've already defended that point, but Phoebe [01:13:02] Speaker B: is the greatest one. [01:13:04] Speaker A: Okay, so she was educated. [01:13:05] Speaker B: She was educated. [01:13:06] Speaker A: Okay, but he didn't clarify that in First Corinthians. But she was there, and she was educated, and she was holding the office of deacon. [01:13:13] Speaker B: No, this argument isn't fair because you're discounting what I'm saying and looping things around to prove your point. But you're not giving the same credit to the text as you are the other text. [01:13:25] Speaker A: No, I do give the credit to the text. [01:13:27] Speaker B: You're not. It's bulldozing me. [01:13:28] Speaker A: Well, let me show you what I'm. Let me show you how I would come to the conclusion on it. I think what we know, it says it uses the word Diaconos. With Phoebe, that word is sometimes used for office, sometimes used for function. We agree on that. [01:13:44] Speaker B: Yes. [01:13:44] Speaker A: So if we're trying to determine if Phoebe held the office, I would go to the qualification passage. [01:13:49] Speaker B: Okay. [01:13:50] Speaker A: Which would forbid her from holding the office of deacon. [01:13:53] Speaker B: I disagree. [01:13:54] Speaker A: Okay. But that's where I think it's a little more clear. Would you say that it's hard for her to be the husband of one wife? [01:14:03] Speaker B: Of course. Well, let me. So some have said this is written in a sandwich structure, which was common in that day. So versus. So now we're talking about First Timothy, chapter three, verses eight through 13, which let the record know that I'm teaching the Bible on a podcast. Smile to the camera. Okay. Verses 8 through 10, Paul begins with the qualifications for deacons. Verses 11 in the same way, introducing women. Some translations say likewise. So now he's transitioning to taught the translation. The original translation is women, not wives. [01:14:46] Speaker A: Well, it. What's the word, though? [01:14:49] Speaker B: Let's see here. The women. I'm using nm. [01:14:55] Speaker A: What's the Greek. What's the Greek word? [01:14:56] Speaker B: Okay, let me look it up. [01:15:00] Speaker A: And so here's the deal. [01:15:02] Speaker B: When I can give you this. Let me finish the thought and structure. Can I do that? [01:15:07] Speaker A: Certainly. [01:15:07] Speaker B: Okay. And then verse 12 returns to deacons again in this verse. So Paul isn't. So he's doing the sandwich structure of writing, which includes women in the form of deacons. And then the word is. Let's see here, guys. Verse 8. Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest. I would rather have a podcast on talking about the qualifications of elders. And what if everyone's actually holding them? Sorry, bitterness. You can delete that now. I would. [01:15:49] Speaker A: Your sandwich structure point is why men like MacArthur would say it's making room for women to be deacons. Nevertheless, to take that to. That's a servant of the church. These are people who are caring for widows and orphans. These are people who are administering the ordinances. This is not someone who's teaching the word on Sunday. So if I gave you. If I looked at it and said, okay, I don't believe that a woman can be a deacon by the text, but I do understand the argument. Okay, so if I gave you that argument, we're still at the same place when it comes to Lord's day worship. I don't see the deacon speaking. That's not part of their qualifications to be. So we could. I may could be convinced if, you know, if you spent time with me, I might could be convinced that there is a place for a woman to be a deacon. I don't think that necessarily crosses over into the other functions. [01:16:50] Speaker B: Okay. [01:16:50] Speaker A: Does that make sense? [01:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So the translation here, I can show it to you if you'd like to look. It's up on the top. [01:16:57] Speaker A: I can't see that. [01:16:58] Speaker B: Jean, put your glasses on. [01:17:00] Speaker A: But we'll disgrant that woman. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Adult female. [01:17:04] Speaker A: Okay. [01:17:05] Speaker B: But also wife. Okay. [01:17:07] Speaker A: That's typical. Typical of the Greek language. It's not easy for us to nail down the word virgins the same way between the way it was used in the Hebrew and the Greek. In the Hebrew, it could mean a woman of marriage age. In the Isaiah passage, we're talking about Mary being a virgin, but in the Greek it was very clear. So that's typical of languages. That's what makes some of these things more difficult in our context, is because we're used to one word meaning one thing, you know, and context giving fuller meaning. And it doesn't always work that way in the Greek, which makes it a little more complicated. But at the end of the day, I'm upset. [01:17:55] Speaker B: At the end of the day with who? With the. Sorry I interrupted, but I just. I'm upset about the women need to submit and not use their voices. I would like to flesh that out what that looks like within our church and how we safeguard extreme expressions of that. [01:18:16] Speaker A: Okay, so in our church, do you feel like you do not have the freedom to come to me with an open Bible and correct me? [01:18:27] Speaker B: I. Of course I do. But I think we also have relational equity. Right. [01:18:33] Speaker A: And that's healthy. [01:18:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:35] Speaker A: So what's there to be upset about? [01:18:37] Speaker B: I'm upset with. I'm sure within our church walls there are people that run their households holding that verse over women in a way that's harmful. Daughters and women. [01:18:53] Speaker A: Sure. I don't disagree with that. That's wrong and it's unhelpful. And if we can address it, we do address it. I would say if a child comes to me with an open Bible, that I'm subject to the truth, you know, so if they come to me with an open Bible and can correct me and show me biblically that Pastor, what you're doing, what you're saying, how you're acting, is off base. Not only do they have the right to do that, they have somewhat of a duty to do that. Okay, so there's nothing. There's no gender or age or any kind of truth is truth. And if someone brings the truth, then we should subject ourselves to the truth. So, you know, coffee shop conversations, setting up an appointment coming in. A young lady approached me a couple of months ago and had an honest question. I said something about Satan deceiving Eve in Genesis. She approaches me, she says, well, it doesn't say that. I said it doesn't. I said it says it in the New Testament. And so we sat down and we had a healthy conversation and I showed her this is why I said that. But I did not reprove her for asking the question. You know, she has every right to come and challenge me if I'm off base. So, you know, I think that's a healthy. And we didn't have relational equity. You know, this is just anyone a non member can do this. The difference is, can she get up on Sunday morning and exhort the church in doctrine? Because it's Lord's day worship and I think we have boundaries there. I would say no. That is a place for biblically qualified men, which we're in agreement, most are not. That's the bigger deficit of the Big Sea church is the men that we do have many times are disqualified in other ways that might be worth coming back and revisiting. [01:21:03] Speaker B: Yeah, [01:21:06] Speaker A: and I think you have a valid point that there are a lot of unhealthy expressions of domineering masculinity, whatever it might be. That again, might be worth coming back and unpacking more fully. But at the end of the day, have I convinced you of anything? [01:21:30] Speaker B: I need to study those passages out more about this Sunday, but I still would like to place them on the situational context of the culture at that time based on what I've already studied. But I'll press in more and I'll hold it loosely, just as I also hold an elder as a man. Loosely. [01:21:52] Speaker A: I appreciate that. [01:21:53] Speaker B: But I do think women can be pastors based on the gifting lists being non gendered in Ephesians 4. But one thing, if we have time for it, I do have concerns with women in ministry being displaced and also because they haven't been in healthy churches, there a lot of women that do what I do. For years I served as a prayer team leader and we would pray over these women that would come to a conference for seasoned writers and ministers and speakers. And what I saw over and over again is that women were not engaged in churches although they were ministering outside the church. So my concern outside of, obviously I want to study the Bible. I want it to be authoritative in my life. But the practical reality also alongside women in ministry is that there's not support or they feel hurt and they don't have relationships like this. And that's a huge concern. I want to urge women to be involved in a local church that's healthy and can steward their gifts honorably and well. And I think it's rare to see that it is. [01:23:04] Speaker A: And hopefully this is a step in a good direction. You know, we don't have to align [01:23:11] Speaker B: with [01:23:14] Speaker A: a Southern Baptist theologian. We don't have to align with. We don't even have to agree fully on this. It's okay to disagree. I think that's healthy to say as well. This is not a top tier issue that makes us believe the other person's not legitimate as a Christian. This is certainly a tertiary issue that good people are going to. And this is not the kind of thing that I would get in somebody else's business about. I do think Paul did. I think Paul was forcing the point. But let's say, for example, if the church down the street takes a different position on it, I'm going to respect the lady that they make the pastor of the church. I'm not going to disrespect her. I'm not going to call her something different. I'm going to function in a healthy way. I hope in that I'm responsible along with the other pastors for this flock. And so I do try to leave enough room, Big C church kingdom mindedness, for a measure of disagreement, that I can still respect a congregation and how they interpret it differently and be responsible in conscience and conviction for the way that I lead this church. So thank you for coming on and talking about it. I hope it's been helpful to the people watching and I'm sure they'll let us know in the comments. We may have to block a couple of people. [01:24:46] Speaker B: I can bless some people. To reiterate, we are both Christians, so please don't call us into repentance. Right. That's the Lord said. [01:24:54] Speaker A: Would you close us in prayer? [01:24:56] Speaker B: Sure. Lord, I thank you for Pastor Zach and his friendship and the way he shepherds and leads not only our church, but our community as well. I lift up any women that are called into ministry that might be listening to this. And I just pray for a clarity of conviction over their lives. I pray for clear direction on what that looks like. I pray for a willingness to be educated as Paul addressed situationally. Just kidding. I thank you, Lord, for the work of our church. And I pray we continue to be faithful in stewarding all you give us. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen. [01:25:34] Speaker A: Thank you for coming on the program. [01:25:35] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.