CODE RED - Carol Everette

[00:00:07] Speaker A: And this is in what grades? [00:00:08] Speaker B: 5Th, 6th? You start talking about it, okay? And it's way early, but you, you're doing a conditioning, remember, you're conditioning them to get ready when they're 13 to have an abortion. And so you say, if you decided you wanted to have sex, would your parents keep you? Would they help you? Would they help make certain you were safe? Don't worry about that. Come to us. When they came to us, our doctors prescribed a low dose birth control pill we knew they would get pregnant on. How did we do that? We prescribed that birth control pill that was such a low percentage, it had to be taken accurately at the same time every day. If they didn't take it at the same time every day, they would get pregnant. We know teenagers don't do anything at the same time every day. We knew that when she thought she was protected, that sexual activity would increase from zero or once a week to five to seven times a week. We knew the pill wouldn't work. We were creating our market. [00:01:07] Speaker A: You know, our God has a sense of humor, and sometimes he reaches into the enemy's camp and saves someone out just to show the glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm reminded of the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus, encountering Jesus and then going from persecuting Christians to evangelizing the world. Well, that is the story of Carol Everett. Carol was in the abortion industry and was instrumental in 35,000 abortions taking place until Jesus Christ stepped into her life. And that's the story we're talking about today on Code Red. Carol Everett, welcome to the Code Red studio. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm so glad to be with you today. [00:02:16] Speaker A: As we will have already said in the introduction, your story is sort of one of those Damascus Road experiences where the Lord took someone who was working against the cause of Christ and in his divine sense of humor, brought you into the kingdom and is using you in a great way. I felt like when I listened to your story that you remind me of a lot of the evangelists that I've heard through the years. Do you see people coming to faith in Christ as you speak? [00:02:50] Speaker B: Yes. And that has become more of a focus for me in my work. I work with pregnancy centers and my goal right now. I've tried a little bit of everything, as you may know. I mean, I did education. I thought we could change the legislation, I thought we could change the laws. And finally I found my love. It's pregnancy Resource Centers because they are the ones that are taking the gospel to the unchurched. They are reaching the unchurched in their community that will never walk through the door of a church. Yet we have an opportunity to get them to that church by saving their lives, saving their babies lives physically and their lives eternally. [00:03:26] Speaker A: We're going to unpack the whole story, but in a nutshell, you were in the abortion industry and you ran the clinics and then you came to Christ, transitioned out of that. Do you find in these pregnancy centers, do you ever run into people who are hesitant or suspicious or not sure if they can work with you or not or. I've just wondered what that's been like. [00:03:51] Speaker B: I've had a lot of that over the years. Okay. I always have someone in my face telling me I cannot get to heaven. [00:03:58] Speaker A: Really. [00:03:59] Speaker B: And I thought that was very interesting. At first it scared me because at first I had to understand my reaction and I realized that they don't know my Jesus. And so I have an opportunity to tell them why I can get to heaven and who Jesus is. [00:04:13] Speaker A: I think about with Paul and we referred to earlier, he called himself the chief of sinners. And he opened the door in the martyrdom of the first Christian martyr. And so when Stephen was stoned, they laid their cloaks at the feet of a young man named Saul and who later became Paul. And I think that was something that he carried, that he remembered. He was always reminded of his background and his sin, but it also gave him an opportunity to magnify the grace of God. Have you struggled at times with just accepting that grace and walking in freedom? [00:05:02] Speaker B: Yes. The worst part of my world is forgiving myself. I can read the scriptures, I can understand intellectually that I'm forgiven, but then I have to forgive myself. And there's a lot to forgive. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Well, for all of us, there are a lot more than we probably even know. But you grew up in Texas and a conservative state, historically. Did you. Were you taught at an early age that abortion was okay, that it was bad? Was it? What? How were you raised in a way that would put that on your radar, that that's a viable occupation? [00:05:45] Speaker B: I was not raised that it was a viable occupation. Abortion was never an issue. We never talked about it. I got pregnant. I became pregnant when I was 16, had a child when I was 17, second child at the time, I was 19. Abortion was not an issue in Texas at that time, but it became an issue. And when it became an issue, it was accepted in my family. No one ever talked about it. It was just okay. But the other thing was the reason that abortion Became acceptable in my family was because of the amount of money I was making. My commission was $25 for each abortion and they could multiply. [00:06:26] Speaker A: So you began in what line of work before the abortion clinic? [00:06:30] Speaker B: I actually was the first woman in medical supply sales in Dallas. And that took me into an arena with doctors to hear about abortion, to be around the people who owned abortion clinics. [00:06:43] Speaker A: So as it was taking off and more of these clinics were opening up, did you just. You first worked in a clinic, is that correct? [00:06:53] Speaker B: Well, I worked for a man who owned a clinic and he saw the great potential, the profitability in a clinic. And yes, I worked for him and worked in the clinic. [00:07:03] Speaker A: As I listened to you kind of rattle off the percentages and how much the doctors are making versus the clinic and all that, you've got a great mind for business. Was that something that's just always been there or at what point did you recognize that not only is there opportunity there, but you have what it takes to go and start a business and franchise it out and all that sort of thing? [00:07:30] Speaker B: I never really thought about it that way. [00:07:32] Speaker A: But that's not normal. [00:07:34] Speaker B: That's not normal. [00:07:35] Speaker A: You have a gift for that. You really do. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Well, that's interesting. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm going to try to put that into the work in the resource center. But I was motivated by the fact that I was the single mother of two. I wanted to give them more than their father had ever thought he could give them. It wasn't really something that I thought about, but I saw the potential to be a millionaire. And in order to be a millionaire, I had to do that multiplication right. And I needed a doctor because I needed a partner who would help me in cover ups when a woman died. Because that happens and no one talks about it. And I recruited that doctor and felt very confident that we could open five clinics surrounding the Dallas Fort Worth area because they pay for themselves the first month. Really, if you. We opened one and it paid for itself. I mean, the first month it was a profit making. [00:08:26] Speaker A: That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen in hardly any industry. [00:08:29] Speaker B: No, it doesn't. But see, I use the telephone bank to direct those new patients in that area to that. I mean, we had a central telephone bank booking for two agencies for two clinics. So I could, I could control where the patients went. [00:08:43] Speaker A: How, how many people did you have taking the calls? I know they're called counselors, but when, when a girl would call up in inquiring about an abortion, how, how many People did you have operating those phones. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Depending on times four to six people. [00:08:58] Speaker A: And were they highly trained? [00:09:00] Speaker B: They were trained to be sales, to do telemarketing over the phone. They had a script designed to overcome every objection. When a woman talked about something like, oh, I think I could be killing my baby. No, no, no, no, no. It's a glob of tissue. It's a blood clot. It is not a baby. You know, we lied to those women, but we had a script designed to overcome every single objection, to get her in the door as soon as possible. We understood several things. Don't let her wait. Someone's going to come along and tell her no. And someone's going to come along to help her. Just get it done. And I answered the phone at night. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Did you ever have any of those girls working the phones or nurses? Did anybody in your office ever seem to have a moral objection to what was happening before you did? [00:09:53] Speaker B: I had a girl come in one morning and say, I can't do it anymore. And she was the one in central supply that processed the trays after the. With the babies in them, their babies remains. And she said, I woke up last night and those babies were sitting on the edge of that sink with their legs crossed, waving at me. I can't do it. [00:10:14] Speaker C: Wow. [00:10:15] Speaker A: Can you imagine what, what some of these. You know, when we've counseled from a pastor's perspective, ladies who've gone through and. And they don't tell you that. They don't tell you that these things will haunt you, that, that it's. It's not something that you can wipe off your emotional self. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Spiritually, it can be. It can be washed away as if it never happened. But. But emotionally, that's a long, long journey to get. [00:10:42] Speaker B: To get past those lies we believe. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:45] Speaker B: And forgiving yourself, it's so hard. [00:10:47] Speaker A: I'm going to link it to some of your talks in the. In the show notes. So I want to encourage everybody to go back and listen to those. I've already done so. So I'm going to ask you some questions that. Assuming that people are going to get that context, you painted a picture, whether this is intentional or whether this is premeditated, of a systematic plan that begins in the earliest days of childhood in grade school. And so unpack that a little bit for us. In kindergarten, these children are being led into conversations that are priming the pump. So tell us a little bit about that. [00:11:32] Speaker B: Our goal was three to five abortions from every girl between the ages of 13 and 18. [00:11:37] Speaker C: Wow. [00:11:37] Speaker B: So you have to have a system to get there. [00:11:40] Speaker A: And just consider that as a dad, I've got two girls. And to think that there are people in the world who are putting numbers on my children that are going to devastate those girls and not to mention the babies that will die. But with that in mind, reverse engineering that goal in kindergarten, what's happening? [00:12:05] Speaker B: Well, you have to break down the natural modesty and separate them from their parents. And you can't do that overnight. So you have to have a system that does that. And in kindergarten, you just put the children in a circle, you go around the room, and you ask each of them what their parents say to call their private parts. And you know, and I know we all have different names for our private parts in our families. And so you go around the room, you reach the second or third child, the kids are wondering, do our parents really know what we have? And then the adults say, voice, this is what you have, girls. This is what you have. Don't be ashamed of your private parts. [00:12:35] Speaker A: Now, who's are teachers having these conversations or someone that you send in as an expert? How is it happening? [00:12:41] Speaker B: Well, many times they bring people in from outside. And one of the largest sex providers in the nation is Planned Parenthood. [00:12:48] Speaker C: Wow. [00:12:48] Speaker B: And so they come into the schools and say, don't worry about it. We'll take care of that part of education. We'll do it for free. [00:12:54] Speaker A: And it's uncomfortable for teachers anyway. [00:12:56] Speaker B: They get a break, they get away. They can go take care of other business, and they don't stay in the room. [00:13:01] Speaker C: Wow. [00:13:02] Speaker B: So you have open season on those kids, and you look out in the playground and what are they doing? They're sharing. That's what kindergartners do in the first, second, and third grade. You start a different agenda. It's actually intercourse, but you don't do it that you don't say, okay, let's talk about intercourse. You give them small books with cartoon bodies having intercourse, and they look at it and no parent. I mean, this is where it's so important for us to understand that we need to have a different relationship with our children. So they come home and tell us. And when they see those books, if they don't have that relationship, and I'm sure your daughters do, they know their parents would be upset. They know this is wrong. They instinctively know this is wrong. They're not going to go home and tell their parents what happened today. [00:13:48] Speaker A: Well, and you know, the enemy has designs, he has snares, he has all these tactics. And so we homeschool our kids. Julie had an elementary education degree, and so we equipped ourselves with the belief that God would give us children one day and then homeschooled our kids up through the middle school years. And that was part of the reason is because we don't know what's going to be happening in that school system, even in the church. If you're homeschooling, raising your kids in church, he still has designs against your kids and has his ways of getting into their mind. So the relationship is so important. And whether you're sending your kids to school, I think that's God's will for a lot of people to send them to school. But you've got to build that close, tight relationship so that they're telling you what they're learning and what they're being taught in those different environments. [00:14:51] Speaker B: They know that there are things that will upset you and if you don't have that relationship, you don't know what's going on. [00:14:57] Speaker A: Right? So as they're, they, you said third. [00:15:01] Speaker B: Fourth grade, they're getting these third grade, they, they change. They talk about masturbation. Masturbate alone until you're comfortable, then in groups of four or five, the same sex. Now, I will tell you, this is a long time ago. It's changed now. It's probably worse now, but that was leading to homosexuality. I mean, you know, and then in the fifth and sixth grade, this is where I came in. This is where the big guns come in. Because now you're going to get them sexually active. [00:15:26] Speaker A: And this is in what grades? [00:15:27] Speaker B: 5Th, 6th? You start talking about it, okay? And it's way early, but you, you're doing a conditioning. Remember, you're conditioning them to get ready when they're 13 to have an abortion. And so you say if you decided you wanted to have sex, would your parents keep you? Would they help you? Would they make certain you were safe? Don't worry about that. Come to us. When they came to us, our doctors prescribed a low dose birth control pill we knew they would get pregnant on. How did we do that? We prescribed that birth control pill that was such a low percentage, it had to be taken accurately at the same time every day. If they didn't take it at the same time every day, they would get pregnant. We know teenagers don't do anything at the same time every day. We knew that when she thought she was protected that sexual activity would increase from zero or once a week to five to seven times a week. We knew the Pill wouldn't work. We were creating our market. [00:16:20] Speaker C: Wow. [00:16:20] Speaker B: I held the hand of one young woman while she had her ninth abortion. I'm not happy to tell you. [00:16:26] Speaker A: And you're telling me that this is a premeditated plan where the doctors will prescribe this low dose birth control believing and many times without the parents knowledge and permission. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Oh yes. Oh yes. They can do it without parental consent. [00:16:45] Speaker A: And that's with the legal changes especially you see why parental consent is something that we've always tried to keep on the forefront. So without the parents consent, get the girl on a low dose birth control knowing. I've never met a teenager who could take something every day without parents help. So knowing that they're probably going to foul up. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:10] Speaker A: Preconditioning them to be intimate. And then when she's pregnant and terrified, you guys are there ready to help. [00:17:21] Speaker B: She knows who to call. She calls us. We have our script. We're ready, we're ready to sell it. [00:17:28] Speaker A: And on the, the boys side, you said that they were selling like low quality condoms or providing, not selling, giving. [00:17:37] Speaker B: We passed them out seconds. We didn't buy first quality condoms. We bought seconds and we put them in big baskets everywhere so they could just pick them up and take them. [00:17:46] Speaker A: And the idea is these boys feel like they're protected, that they're safe. And you know that some of those are going to foul. [00:17:57] Speaker B: They put them in their pockets, they walk around with them. I mean, no, they will not work. And they feel safe. And it's the same thing. It's creating that market. [00:18:08] Speaker A: So as the girl finds out, she thinks she might be pregnant. She gives a call to the center and on the phone you guys are asking when was her. [00:18:21] Speaker B: The first thing is. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Don't get excited. Let's talk through this. What's the first day of your last normal period? She may or may not know that, but she figures it and gives it to them. They put it on a wheel. It's actually designed to calculate the birthday of the baby. But they don't say baby. They say you're eight weeks pregnant. Now think about what they did. They just planted that first seed. They have not examined her, no test has been taken, nothing. But they've convinced her now that she's pregnant. And that sales to convince her she's pregnant starts, you're eight weeks pregnant. Is this good news or bad news? If it were good news, she would not be calling an abortion clinic. It's bad news. And when she replies, bad news. This counselor Moves right back in. We can take care of your problem. No one needs to know. And that's when they say, okay, get your money. Come on in. [00:19:15] Speaker C: Wow. [00:19:17] Speaker A: The industry, as you were building the clinics, as these girls began to come in, were you seeing. You said immediately in the first month, you. You generated a profit? [00:19:31] Speaker B: Well, because we had the phone bank, and I could direct the number of clients to that area. I could take the people coming in on that highway to that clinic. So it was the phone bank that generated the money to get the. Up to 200 abortions a month is a moneymaker. [00:19:45] Speaker A: So as the girls start to come in, you have. There's a separation between the doctor and the clinic. The doctors are contract labor, is that correct? [00:19:56] Speaker B: Yes. They work. They two work. The doctors work on a straight commission, too. And they are only paid for the number of abortions they provide. In the first trimester, it's a third of the fee, which right now is about $600. So it's $200 an abortion. His goal in the first trimester is 10 to 12 an hour. He works with two teams of two assistants moving from room to room. He just goes in there, they've got the girls set up and ready. He does the abortion. He dilates. He numbs the cervix. He dilates the cervix. He uses the suction. He removes it and walks across the hall. He doesn't stop to do operative notes. He doesn't stop to rewash his hands. He just changes gloves and starts over across the hall. While the second room is going on, the third patient is brought in because the first team takes the first girl to the recovery room, comes back with patient number three, and he runs back and forth. [00:20:50] Speaker A: And you mentioned that if they're further along, those are kind of more desirable because the profit margin is. Did I understand that correct? [00:20:59] Speaker B: Yes. The price goes up in the 13th week, and it's depending upon the length of the pregnancy. In the 13th and 14th week, it's one fee and then 15 and 16. But Dr. Hearn's clinic in Colorado today, he retired last month, but he has people in that clinic doing abortions through all nine months of pregnancy until the moment of labor for $25,000. And they do six to 10 a week. So that's 12,500 in the pocket of the abortionist times six to 10 a week. [00:21:31] Speaker A: And I think if you're from my tribe and we're looking at it, abolish abortion, then, you know, you look at it, and we try to get all that we can, as far as, you know, incremental changes to get it, you know, a shorter and shorter time that a girl can get an abortion. But. But you can see that if it can go all the way to labor, there's a. There's a profit motive to that. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:00] Speaker A: It's not just that they're looking at it scientifically or medically, that there would be no benefit to letting this girl go that. That long, but there is a profit motive. [00:22:13] Speaker B: 12,500 each procedure in his pocket. [00:22:16] Speaker C: Wow. [00:22:16] Speaker B: And then the clinic keeps the other half. [00:22:18] Speaker A: And. And the way that the finances worked, they had a little bit of control over how they reported that. Did I understand that correctly? [00:22:29] Speaker B: No reporting at all. [00:22:30] Speaker C: Wow. [00:22:31] Speaker B: But, yes, they can manipulate the ultrasound to push it in and get a bigger head so that she's farther along, so you charge her more or that they want to. They can pull it back out and get a smaller measurement. [00:22:44] Speaker C: Wow. [00:22:45] Speaker A: There's just so much that's going into this whole industry. [00:22:48] Speaker B: It is an industry, and it's the largest unregulated industry in the nation today. Still, you know, abortion is illegal in Texas now, But there were 35,000 abortions last month, last year in Texas. How did that happen? And I hate to be graphic, but we are finding babies in sewer systems because they're taking that pill. It has not stopped. We have work to do. You know, we have work to do state by state. But as a nation, we need to see life from a different perspective. We have to come back and recognize that the abortion industry works on fear. It works on the fear of the young woman. How many parents take their children in for an abortion thinking they can just take care of this and it will be over, only to find that they have destroyed their daughter's life as well as their grandchild's life. We as a country, we as citizens, we as Christians, have to see life from God's perspective. [00:23:43] Speaker A: I want to. I want to unpack the story of how the gospel sort of came into your story. But before that, before that happened, do you have any idea how many abortions would have taken place? [00:23:58] Speaker B: Yes, I believe it was about 35,000. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Wow. 35,000. And what was the scenario that made you open to the seat of the gospel when it was presented to you? Go ahead and tell that story. [00:24:16] Speaker B: We were going to expand. And everyone inside the abortion clinic, the doctors fight, the nurses fight, the partners fight, the partnership was the doctor, his live in girlfriend and me. And guess what? That girlfriend and I did not get along at all. But we needed to get along if we were going to open three more clinics in the next year. Our goal was three more. Open them up. I'd be a millionaire. We'd have five clinics running. Oh goodness. That was the goal. And our cpa, of all people, told us about this business counselor that could probably help us with our problems. [00:24:49] Speaker A: I'm reminded of that Billy Crystal movie where he was supposed to be counseling a mafia guy. And he said, so it's my job to make you a happy, well adjusted gangster. And so now this guy's coming into your world, supposed to help you to get along with 35,000 abortions that have taken place. He doesn't know your industry at that point. He's just stepping in as a business counselor. Is that accurate? [00:25:17] Speaker B: He knew. [00:25:18] Speaker A: So tell me about how it happened. [00:25:20] Speaker B: He knew and I'll tell you. He, I probably need to tell you. He and his deacons had been praying for some time. They believed there was someone inside the abortion clinic that God wanted out. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Was he a pastor? [00:25:32] Speaker B: Yes. We didn't know this. We thought we were hiring a business counselor. And he came in and his, our agreement with him was that we would meet with him four weeks, an hour each. That's it. He was going to solve our problems. Next year I would be a millionaire. I didn't care how much he cost. He didn't ever talk about money. But who cares? It's going to happen. So the second, first time I sat down with him, he interviewed me. The second time I sat down with him, I interviewed him because he didn't fit in my world. He didn't drink, he didn't cuss, he didn't chew, he didn't run around on his wife. And finally I said, are you, are you a preacher? He said, yes, from East Texas where they talk like this. Anyway, I said, what in the world are you doing in this situation? And he said, God sent me. This man's crazy. Sir, I have a Bible in my right hand drawer of my desk. I pray every day. I'll have you know that I pray and I tithe on all this money. He was not impressed. And he said, carol, my Deakins and I have been praying for some time. We believe there's someone inside this event abortion clinic that God wants out. And we are going to leave in 30 days. And honestly, I was excited because I wanted him to leave and take that girlfriend with him. But he went on. He did not stop there. He said, God loves you, Carol. He knows you can't be good enough. You can't work hard enough, you can't buy your way to heaven. But because he loves you so much, he sent his son, Jesus Christ, who walked the face of the earth, lived a sin free life and died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for your sin. [00:27:08] Speaker A: Now, you had heard that story before. [00:27:10] Speaker B: It didn't take then either. [00:27:12] Speaker A: And you had as a younger person, being in church at least Easter and Christmas, you knew the story of Jesus. [00:27:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:27:22] Speaker A: And for whatever reason, it just. The light bulb didn't come on prior to this. He's telling you that same story that you had heard before. Did you sense anything was happening or. [00:27:36] Speaker B: It didn't come on then either. Okay, I prayed that prayer to shut that man up. But I've got to say the whole prayer because I can't. I prayed. He said, I'll pray this prayer and you pray it after me. Dear God, I am a sinner. Please forgive me of my sins. Thank you for sending your son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross for my sins. Reign on the throne of my heart as Lord and Savior. Make me a worker in your vineyard. Amen. I stood up, I shook his hand, I got in my car, I laughed all the way back to the abortion clinic. Did this crazy man really think I was going to move to Florida to work in a vineyard? No. That's what I heard. But when I got back to that abortion clinic, something had happened. I know it had happened before, but I'd never seen it. Those girls were all crying. And I started taking them into my office and sitting down with them. [00:28:29] Speaker A: These are patients? [00:28:30] Speaker B: Yes. This is the reception room. Is all crying when I walk in. And you know, before I would just zoom in and didn't pay much attention. I never seen it before, but I saw at that time. And I started taking them back to my office and sitting down and I pulled my chair around and I went knee to knee, eye to eye. Why are you crying? And they would tell me a story. My parents would kill me and. No, your parents wouldn't kill you. They'll be disappointed, but they'll help you. Would you like for me to go home with you and help you talk to your parents? [00:29:01] Speaker A: And you haven't done that before? [00:29:03] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:29:04] Speaker A: But something had changed. [00:29:06] Speaker B: I was the. I was the hammer. If they had one. They couldn't get across the line. They brought it to me. I scared that poor girl to death and she had an abortion. But something had changed. And at the end of that day, I was not saying, isn't this great? I saved three babies. I was saying almost $75. And I don't know why, but I went to the abortionist office and I was behind that desk and I fell to my knees and prayed a heart prayer. Lord, if there is a Lord, if this is not where you want me, hit me over the head with a two by four. I don't pray for two by fours anymore. He had one and it was swift. Channel 4, the CBS affiliate in Dallas, did an expose on abortion clinics doing abortions on women who were not pregnant. They sent three reporters to the doctor to make certain they weren't pregnant. They wired them for sound, sent them to our clinic. We knew they were coming. We'd been tipped off, but it didn't make any difference. We found those women pregnant and they had recorders in their purses. They had videos, they had pictures of us saying, yep, baby, you're pregnant. Got your money. Why don't you just do it today? And they heard that special 27 days after that pastor said someone would be leaving in 30 days. [00:30:17] Speaker C: Wow. [00:30:18] Speaker B: And all I knew was I did not want to be in that clinic while they did one more abortion. I said, stop. I actually said to them, stop until I got out the door. [00:30:32] Speaker A: Did you realize that that was taking place? I know there was a separation between the doctor and the clinic. Is this something the doctor had going on or was it what was taking place there? [00:30:44] Speaker B: Well, the doctor was scared to death because of his reputation in his private practice. And he was freaked out. And we had a very sick relationship, you know, a dependent relationship. He was living with this girl, and yet he called me every night at 9:00 to tell me good night. It was just sick. And he was freaked out. He was crazy. The CPA was handling it all. And the man who led me to Christ came in the clinic that day. That's the first time he came in the clinic. He came in the clinic to walk me out and tell me that God had everything under control. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Did you interpret everything that was taking place as being of the Lord, or did you see yourself as being delivered from something? [00:31:38] Speaker B: Not at that point. I did not know I was so full of lies. It took the Lord a long time to get me calm enough to really understand. But I did know that I was not to kill babies anymore. I did know I was to leave the abortion business. But I had two kids in college with huge allowances and brand new cars. And, you know, I had all of the overhead that goes with sin, right? And I was struggling with what was going on. And I don't tell people this, but I'm going to tell you this because it's a little hard to understand. I had bought a butcher shop, a meat market. [00:32:17] Speaker C: Wow. [00:32:18] Speaker B: And I had nowhere to go from the abortion business except to that meat market. And God worked on me in that cooler with me screaming and crying and not understanding. And the man and woman who led me to Christ spent some part of every day with me. And they were not patting me on the back. They were feeding me scripture. They were answering every question with scripture and every day for years. And I did talk to him last week. I said, they're still in my life. They're a wonderful couple. I would say, I'm scared. And they'd say, God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but power and love and a sound mind. I got that one. And then I found the 139th Psalm in my. I had this very. My quiet time was very regimented, you know, two chapters a day. And I found Psalm 139. As I read how each of us is knit together inside the darkness of her mother's womb. And the days of our lives were ordained for us before we even were. I realized that none of those babies were. They were all full of organs in life. And that not only had I been involved in killing babies, but I'd been involved in killing one woman who bled to death, 19 other women who had hysterectomies or colostomies. And then the sin at that time that I thought I could never be forgiven of was taking the life of my own child by abortion. But as only God can. First John 1:9. If you confess and repent of your sins, he is faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. And there's something that ought to be in the Bible that's not. Of course, we can't change that. But, you know, as a Christian, there's not a plateau. You keep growing. And I confessed a sin yesterday from years ago that I did. He just brought up, we do that. Yeah. And so it's been of a cleansing. And the first few years were tough. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but God took care of me. And one Christian said to me one time, someday you're going to look back on this and see that he has you in velvet gloves. And I thought, oh, no sandpaper. But I do see now that he had a way that was designed uniquely for me. And he put the people around me that I could hear. There were a lot of other Voices attacking me. The abortion industry came back at me hard. Come back, come back, come back. They flew in from New York. They came in from all. They tried to get me back in the fold, but, you know, that was never an option for me at that time. At that point, I didn't know much, but I knew that was not it. And my children were struggling along with me. [00:35:24] Speaker A: How old were they this season? [00:35:25] Speaker B: They were 19. They were 19 and 21. They were not babies. But I had forced my daughter to work in the clinic. She was the best person on the phone, and she was devastated because she had never probably ever really wanted to do that. And then my son said it was wrong. I knew it was wrong all along. So my family was circling, and it was just. But in all of that, now, I can see how God just moved it all aside. A lot of the garbage fell away. A lot of the stuff that I thought I had to have in my life and my children's life. My son had to go to work. My daughter quit school, quit college. But God was in it all. [00:36:15] Speaker A: And I think it's good for us to hear from the inside of those situations that real people. You know, life is hard. You know, if you. If you're in church every time the doors are open and. And trying to be faithful, you don't get a pass on life being hard. We still have bills to pay and all that kind of stuff. People still get sick. You still have real. You know, we're not in Eden anymore. In this side of Eden, until heaven, life is difficult. And then on top of that, all of the different odd scenarios that you were in, any one of which could put a person in counseling for the rest of their life, and these things are just piled on top of you as you're trying to live a regular life and put your kids through school and all of that. You know, it's really helpful. I think one thing about your story that's benefited me is just like the enemy will kind of make a caricature of who we are as Christians. We're real people, too, that sometimes we can do that to people in the abortion industry or girls who are facing these challenges. They're real people, and they have, you know, stress, anxiety. They have all the things that we're dealing with, and. And this is added to it. It just gives you some compassion for those people, that. That there's hope if God can bring you out of that. You know, there's. There's no one that he can't redeem. [00:37:49] Speaker B: I. I believe that I believe it. I believe I'm worse than Paul. I kill more babies anyway. And I'm not writing scripture, I'm not Paul. But anyone can be redeemed and we should. For years I prayed that God went into abortion by bringing all the abortions to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. They're kind of aging out now. They're dying off. Are new people taking their place, though? So. Yes, but do you think, do you. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Think from your knowledge of the inside, if a young man or young woman, they're in medical school and it comes that time when they have to decide their specialty in their profession, at what point and how do they go through making those decisions? Do you have any insights into that as far as what, what causes a person who could make a, make a great living practicing medicine and a lot of other areas. What causes someone to specialize in abortion? [00:38:52] Speaker B: Money? [00:38:54] Speaker A: Is it more profitable? [00:38:55] Speaker B: They're paying? Yes. Yes. When you can walk out the door with, you know, 10, 15, $20,000 for a morning's work and you're paying off. [00:39:08] Speaker A: College medical school loans and there seems to be an army of people protecting you from lawsuits, it must be because one would think if you're a dentist, we've got an oral surgeon in our family and I know that, you know, people will sue you over anything. You would think that, that the legal threat would be through the roof. [00:39:29] Speaker B: The family does not want any disparaging light shed on their family member. The girl doesn't want to come forward. Lawsuits are. We never had a lawsuit. [00:39:38] Speaker A: Really. [00:39:39] Speaker B: Never had a loss. [00:39:40] Speaker A: Wow. [00:39:41] Speaker B: Now, on this side, I've encouraged a lot of girls to sue. I've done some things. On this side, we've had some loss, but we never had a loss. [00:39:48] Speaker C: Wow. [00:39:49] Speaker B: And we were, remember I worked with a man who had four abortion clinics and then we had this. We were starting the one with two to come to go to five, no lawsuits. [00:39:57] Speaker C: Wow. [00:39:58] Speaker A: That's, that's shocking. [00:39:59] Speaker B: It's a built in shame that does. They do not want to reveal. It is shocking, but it's all, as you said, it's the enemy. [00:40:09] Speaker A: Have you, have you been able to discern on this side of things, is there a proper or a better or. And I know it's a spectrum way to approach people who are in the industry because, you know, as soon as people find out what I do, they're not going to, you know, someone who's, who's in any kind, of any kind of world that profits from the sin industry, so to speak, then they're going to keep distance from me. I'm not going to be able to speak into their lives. But some of the people watching this program are. They've got people in their family, in their neighborhood that they know work in a clinic or they're a doctor. Is there any advice on how to. [00:40:55] Speaker B: Approach those people or have had an abortion? Yeah, it's love. You can't go in and say you're wrong. What you're doing is wrong and I'm right. People are expecting that you can't do that. But if you love them unconditionally, you don't talk about what they're doing, you don't. You develop a relationship with them outside of that, and they can't deny that love, then they'll come to you. That's exactly what that man and that woman who brought me to Christ did. They love me unconditionally and I tried to push them away. [00:41:22] Speaker A: And you can't fake that. [00:41:23] Speaker B: No, you can't fake that. And you know, God will give you the love for those people. [00:41:28] Speaker A: And you know, I have to wonder, you know, just the way that the Lord works, how many people are watching this program who are sovereignly, providentially positioned by God in someone's life and they're wondering what might happen if they reach out to them or build that relationship. And the way that the gentleman shared the gospel with you, I mean it was a Billy Graham presentation. It wasn't like a different gospel for the person in that industry. And he did not necessarily say, you know, you've got to go cold turkey right now. No, he let the Lord kind of clean the fish. [00:42:12] Speaker B: Well, he did let the Lord clean and it was a long cleaning. Remember, 18 months every day and then years. I mean, I'm a 40 year old Christian, I'm still talking to them. Not in the same way, but if I have a problem, I have an issue in my accountability circle that I don't feel comfortable that I'm getting the right advice. Guess what? I go to them and they're still there. But I think God sets. God knows what each of us individually need. And if someone is in tune and listening to the Holy Spirit and listening to the Lord and praying about that, God's going to give them the words. [00:42:48] Speaker A: I think we've got some people probably who are going to pick it. They're going to wave the signs, they're going to stand in front of the clinics and you know, I would say, and you may differ, we haven't talked about this. I would say it's not an either or. There are some people that are called to that, that really need to take that John the Baptist approach. There are others who may have a more relational approach. Our goal is the same, to win people to Christ and save these babies. But as a person running the clinic, did you get picketed? Did you ever have people protesting? [00:43:32] Speaker B: No. Our clinics were on private property, property where we could not be picketed. And I simply went out and informed them of that, called the police, and they were taken away. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:42] Speaker B: But I do agree with you that there are different gifts in here. It's the same gift, same body of Christ with different giftings. In the pro life world, some are called a protest, some are called to love, some are called to pray. But I will say this. I've never seen an abortionist come out of a clinic that didn't come out from being loved. They didn't come out to the protesters. They came out when someone loved them. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Did you during those years? I'm not sure exactly where the conversation, pro life versus abortion, where that was at, but were you hearing. Were the messaging from the pro life movement, Was it getting through to you at all? Were you having to face these questions or were you able to just sort of filter it all out or what? [00:44:29] Speaker B: No, I set my world up so I didn't face it. I mean, I was on private property. I couldn't be picketed if there was one standing there at the end of the driveway when I drove out, I drove by them and went on. They couldn't get. I mean, no, I didn't. I set my world up so I was in my own cocoon. [00:44:45] Speaker A: You're not listening to Focus on the Family. Trying to figure out the moral implications. [00:44:50] Speaker B: No, I am listening. No, I'm listening. Willie Nelson. I'm in Texas. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So now what? What. At what point did God kind of open the door for you to. To say, go back in to. To the fight, but on the other team, how did that work? Was that like a calling for you or how did it. How did it progress? [00:45:15] Speaker B: I didn't want to. The man who led me to Christ was a pastor of a church. And that whole church had been praying for me. And I came out in July and I was sitting and I was going. I started going to church, but I didn't talk to anybody. I mean, I was cordial, but I was in church every Sunday. And then at Thanksgiving meal, someone stood up and said, whatever happened to that woman who was in the abortion business? Here I am. And he said, things are going well, and he didn't address it at all. [00:45:45] Speaker A: And so you were there when they asked the question. [00:45:48] Speaker B: But the church, the deacons knew who I was. The deacons and their wives knew who I was. And there were people that were praying for me and loving me through all of that. And my goal was to get into real estate and get rich another way. That was where I was headed. But I was in this butcher shop, remember? And I was still struggling, still going. And then I started going to a Bible study. So I got another group of about 20 people praying for me. And. And then the butcher shop just finally went belly up. And I was hired by two of the men who were deacons in the church. And one of them who now lives in Florida, said to me, someday you're going to be working in the pro life work. And I was, no, I'm not. I'm going to. I'm working for you in real estate. I'm leasing your properties. I am not going to work in the pro life movement. We. It's kind of a joke now. But anyway, I just kept working and working, and then I still had the butcher shop. And there was a man who washed the windows. He was a Dallas Theological Seminary student. That's how they make a lot of their money. They rush windows. He washed my windows. And then we started doing evangelism explosion. And I'm in there doing it, and you're supposed to go out and share your testimony. Well, my testimony, I knew, would scare some people, so I decided this Dallas Theological Seminary student would be the one I would try my testimony on. And so. [00:47:13] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness, I can't imagine. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Well, I gave him my testimony, and he just didn't say a word. I mean, he just backed off, away from me. And I thought, oh, my goodness, if I blew him away, I can't tell anybody. Well, he came back about the next week and said, when you told me your testimony, I was astounded because we've been praying for someone who's recently come out of the abortion industry who would be willing to testify before the Texas legislature. I get cold chills telling you that even today. And so I went back to the man who led me to Christ, and we got attorneys that were Christians in the Bible study with me. And, I mean, they lawyered me up and. And they brought in this poor little old guy from the pro life movement who was going to recruit me. And they were scared. You know, we were scared at that point. I was scared of pro lifers because that's the way I'd been living for years. Anyway, he came in and they nailed him down to that. He could only do this with me, that with me, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I went down to testify April 15, 1983, before the Texas legislature. And I went in there and sat down in the row behind my old pro choice friends, and they were hissing. It sounded. It didn't sound like conversations. It sounded like hissing to me. And so I got up and went out and sat on one of those big old rocks we still have in the state capitol in Texas and said, lord, Lord. And I opened my Bible and John Sheep, one of the men in our church, had given me Isaiah 41:9 through it's now 9 and 10. Do not fear. You know, I've called you from the ends of the earth. Do not fear. I'm with you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. And I went back in and I testified, and then I was exposed. Then people started calling me and asking me, would you come give your testimony in my church? In my church. And so it started slowly and I committed myself to once a week. And then it just happened. [00:49:10] Speaker A: And you know, when people. I think that's something that's worth kind of mentioning. If, if someone's watching this and they're in that industry or any type of industry that's. That's funded by things that Christ died for, leaving that, you know, your, your friends can seem so encouraging and accepting who are in that world with you. But that's been one of the biggest shockers when we're able to lead someone to Christ who's been in an alternative lifestyle or whatever it might be. They always felt so secure in that community and in those relationships, they come to Jesus and they discover that that community is not as accepting as they thought they were. It wasn't. You just live your life, live and let live. No, no, no. As long as you're playing by those rules, they're. They're sweet people. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:06] Speaker A: But when you come out of that, especially if you join this team, they're going to be some of the most harsh and hateful people that. Did you see any who came back to you and said, you know, I respect that, I wanted to do the same thing. I just couldn't find the. The energy to do it. What were your friends in your circle of influence? How were they processing it? [00:50:32] Speaker B: Well, the interesting thing is my employees in the clinic, you know, we had about 20 people working in the clinic, and they would come to the butcher shop to find out what was going they came to me to see what was going on with me, to ask questions and of course I was not. I was a new Christian. [00:50:47] Speaker A: Were they worried about you? [00:50:49] Speaker B: Oh, I don't think they were really worried about me. They wanted to know what changed me. Yes, they wanted to. They were seeking. One was talking to me about Jesus and I didn't have enough. I didn't know what I was doing as a new Christian, you know, But I told her what I believed and I told her what I thought and I don't know what happened to her. But the abortionist came to see me and of course he just. The abortionist just wanted me to go back. They just thought, you know, you're going to be so unhappy. One Jewish man told me if I just convert to become a Jew and believe that life began at birth, I wouldn't be killing babies. I mean, he knew what he was doing and. But there was a whole spectrum of reactions to me and I didn't go see any of those people. But the abortionist, my so called partner, was scared to death of me. [00:51:42] Speaker A: Why is that? [00:51:44] Speaker B: I don't. I think he saw the truth and I didn't have enough sense to know that that's what he saw in me. But he wouldn't talk to me or be around me or anything. And then finally we were going to meet for lunch one day and he kept changing the location and he finally took me to a private club. Well, in there was a pro life man who walked over to me and said, hi Carol, how are you? He started, he was scared to death. He thought I was going to have protesters out to meet him for lunch. But anyway, I think he died and didn't come to Christ, which has always been. He was still doing abortions. But anyway, it was just an unbelievable. But again, I wasn't in tune enough to be able to do anything with anybody else. I was still struggling internally and learning since that time. [00:52:32] Speaker A: At what point did you see that you have a calling or ministry in these, in these pro life clinics that are helping girls? Did you, did you understand that world or at what point did you even go in and see how the, how the thing functioned? [00:52:49] Speaker B: I really don't know when it started. I learned about pregnancy resource centers pretty early, but remember, they were just starting to. This is a pretty new outreach too. But I started raising money for them. That became my world for a while and I loved that. But I didn't have any continuing ministry. I raised, I went into them, I met with them, I loved them. We had fun I made new friends. I raised some money. I left. I didn't know how it was spent. And there was no ministry for me except in that group. Of course. I was very, very safe there. So I think that was another thing that God was doing, is he had me in a safe environment for a while. And then I started in 19. I was on the women's Health committee for Texas in 2015, and we were about to put 240 million out there. And the year before, we had stopped Planned Parenthood and abortion providers from receiving funds in Texas. And I was sitting on this panel with 11 other people. There were three pro lifers and nine pro choicers. And I knew they were going to lie, because in Texas, you cannot receive Texas funds and provide or refer for abortions. And I knew they were getting title 10, which required them to refer or provide abortions. So I knew they were going to lie. So I said, why can't pro lifers take that money? Okay, well, God let me step into that. I'm not certain still why he did that, but the Heidi group, my organization, took $7 million that could have gone to Planned Parenthood. [00:54:20] Speaker C: Wow. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Surprise, surprise. Day one, they came after me, and I was surprised at how vicious it was. But one reporter called. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Explain that. Was it personal? [00:54:38] Speaker B: It was personal. It was corporate. It was every way they could come at me, they did. And one reporter called me and said, you know, you're going to fail, because if you can provide funds for pro life from a pro life organization, that means Planned Parenthood cannot get money. So you're going to fail, and they're going to make you fail. And so I thought the state of Texas was conservative. I knew the top of the line. I knew the governor down were pro life. I just didn't know the agencies were so terribly pro choice, pro abortion. [00:55:13] Speaker A: It's deeply rooted. [00:55:14] Speaker B: It's very deeply rooted, and there's a history of it. But we provided services in 72 counties for 26 months before they finally took me out by actually lying that we had misused funds. And after 39 months of audits and three audit teams out of $42 million, they questioned 136,000. But I didn't. I knew where that money went, but they didn't ask for the money back. So I got off target there. And then when that cleared, I said, okay, Lord, what are we going to do now? And that's when it came to me that Texas has 70 counties that did not have 70 rural counties that did not have pregnancy resource centers. And so I started calling on the Baptist pastors in those towns, and guess what? They wanted to help, and they knew someone that would do it. And we opened three in the last 18 months. We now have 13 that we're working with. But what I've learned is they serve women immediately. We opened Coleman February 3rd. They had three clients that week. [00:56:25] Speaker C: Wow. [00:56:26] Speaker B: I mean. [00:56:27] Speaker A: I mean, well, in the same way, on the other side, they're. They're turning a profit immediately. When you're starting a ministry like that, you don't really have a ramp. It's. You're. You're on the interstate. Day one. [00:56:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:56:39] Speaker A: When you open up. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Would you say now, as you're kind of looking at the landscape of the pro life movement, what would you say last night we had a real estate decision to make as a church. So I bring in the best minds that I can around that table and kind of defer to them. They understand that world better than I do. So in the same way, if we're believers here in North Florida, local churches, conservative, we agree that this is something that we want to eliminate. What would the strategy be? From your perspective, what would you recommend us to do? [00:57:25] Speaker B: Two or threefold, obviously, prayer, which is questionably the beginning. You regulate the abortion clinics because when you regulate them, they won't stand up for the regulations. You had clinics here in Florida that didn't have hot water, that had rusty instruments. You had bad, bad clinics in Florida. So you regulate them to the same level as an ambulatory surgical facility. Simple. [00:57:46] Speaker A: It's a common surgery, and it's fair. Even if you have a different perspective on it. That makes sense. [00:57:52] Speaker B: It's the most commonly performed surgical procedure, second only to circumcision. So why shouldn't it be done in an outpatient clinic, like an ambulatory surgical facility that closes them? But then you've got the problem of, are they opportunity, I should say, of the women. And what you've got to do there is educate. Because when we talked about how unregulated the clinics were in Texas, we saw an extra 40,000 women that year because they didn't know how bad the abortion industry was. So when you get in the media and you start talking about the abortion industry and how unregulated and talk about them as an industry and how they sell women abortions, and when you click a little of those few things on when a woman picks up the phone and calls an abortion clinic or when she goes online now, she sees what they're doing, but you have to tell Them what they're doing, so they're aware of it. [00:58:39] Speaker A: That's so important. [00:58:40] Speaker B: Yes, it is. And then I guess the last thing is you've got to have enough pregnancy resource centers to take care of those women, and you've got to reach them in every corner of Florida. [00:58:50] Speaker A: So what we're doing here is a form of education. I can stand up in the pulpit and say, this is sin. This is wrong. Which I would encourage my pastor brothers to not take for granted that your people know that. I've had church members come to me that were raised in the church that I pastor, Conservative Southern Baptist Church who've had an abortion. And it never crossed their mind that that was morally, spiritually wrong, sinful. And then as their eyes were open to it, they have to work through that, you know, So I would encourage pastors, don't assume that everybody gets this. Speak to it. Speak boldly to it. But I love this medium because there's a lot more that goes into it and a lot of ways to fight that battle that we don't think about by just saying, well, okay, I'm pro life. I'll be pro life. We can get involved in the civic side and the legislative side. And most of that, would you say, what. What percentage is most of it on the state level? [01:00:00] Speaker B: Or is it cities? Cities can do it, too. [01:00:03] Speaker A: Okay, so you've got. You've got local legislation, you've got state. [01:00:08] Speaker B: Yes, but you do need state. Okay, you need the ambulatory surgical facility. [01:00:13] Speaker A: And then. And then, you know, you're aware we support the nest, that we're funding our crisis pregnancy centers. A lot of our ladies and men are serving in those facilities. The average person that's kind of new to this conversation, how would you encourage them to. What should their next step be? Should they visit one of these centers? [01:00:43] Speaker B: Oh, yes. Go to the nest, make an appointment, go in, take a tour, sit down with their people, sit down with their director, with their counselors, their client advocates know what they're doing. This may be a place for you to be a missionary a few hours a week, but understand what they're doing and how to help them, what their greatest needs are. And it's not always money, although that's always a problem. They can always use more money, certainly. But, you know, what do they need and how can you best support them? And, you know, then get all your churches to support them, because not every church supports them. But when you start supporting them in your church, then you're talking to that woman who's had an abortion. You're talking to those people sitting in the pews that you care enough about this. They may need to look at it. There are just so many things that you can do as a church. I appreciate the fact that you're bold with your message. That's very important as a pastor because you're also talking to that woman or that man. We're forgetting about the fact that men have issues with abortion, too. [01:01:41] Speaker A: And there's ongoing counsel that has to be worked through both for the men and the women as they're awakened to some of the things they've done. And so some people serve the way that the pastor and his wife have in your life by being there for people who've experienced that world and just reminding them of truth and keeping the hope and the grace in front of them and the testimony of scripture. But I love the fact one of the videos I watched, your just faithfulness to share the simple gospel message is our most powerful tool. I believe that he has to change the soul, change the heart. And, you know, I want to commend you for that, first of all. And I want to encourage my brothers who are in this battle with us to reach out to you. And we'll put all the links in the show notes about how they can get in touch with you about bringing you to their community or introducing you maybe to their crisis pregnancy center there. But in closing, how could we pray for you and pray for this movement as a whole? [01:02:54] Speaker B: Gosh, that's a tough question. Because I want, obviously, that I will stay focused. That I will. God will. I will hear his direction because that I will just hear from God. That's what I need more than anything. You'll keep me. Keep me where I need to be. [01:03:11] Speaker A: Amen. And the old. The old Carol is gone. There's a new one here now. [01:03:17] Speaker B: You know, My name was Carol Nan before. They don't call me Carol Nan anymore. They call me Carol. [01:03:23] Speaker A: I think about Samson, that as Samson died, he defeated more enemies than he did in his life. And I think in the same way with you in the death of the old Carol, if there were 35,000 souls that were sent into glory by abortion, I pray that there's that many multiplied that are going to be redeemed and rescued through Jesus Christ, through your work. So keep it up. We need you. [01:03:57] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. [01:03:59] Speaker A: Thank you for being on the program today. [01:04:00] Speaker B: Thank you.