Episode Transcript
[00:00:30] Speaker A: Pam Graves, welcome to the Code Red suit.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: So you grew up on Fernandina beach, you grew up on Amelia island, from what age forward?
[00:00:39] Speaker B: 12.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: 12. You moved over from LA?
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: And didn't come to know Jesus until your 40s?
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: And I was just. We were talking about earlier, what exactly?
Was there a frightening aspect of what was happening in the church or just like you didn't see something you needed there? What was your take on religion, on Christianity, the faith in a very Christianized South?
As a non Christian person, did you think of yourself as a non Christian?
[00:01:13] Speaker B: No, not really.
It was one of those things that I just didn't know what I was missing because I didn't know. I was ignorant to it. It wasn't a thing in my household. We didn't go to church, we didn't talk about God, we didn't. It just wasn't anything that I was exposed to. I knew in my heart that something was missing. I felt that and I went searching for that in different areas and nothing filled my heart.
So I knew something was off. But I didn't put the dots together until.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Did people ever challenge you like other believers? Did they ever come up to you and ask you about it?
[00:01:51] Speaker B: Yes. And actually people invited me to go to church and I did.
And I would weep through the service and didn't really know why.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: So there was something transcendent that you sensed?
I think it was Augustine who said that there's a vacuum inside the heart of every person that's God shaped, that only God can feel. And I think when we get close to that, it does sort of resonate with us. And so you're growing up, you had a few experiences like that. What was the deal breaker or what was it that brought you to full faith in Christ?
[00:02:29] Speaker B: I did significant therapy and counseling throughout my life.
And when my husband and I reconnected and ultimately married, he was a believer and grew up in the Methodist Church from birth and generations of Methodists. And he said, you know, we're going to go to church and we're going to raise our children in church and we're a blended family. And I was like, okay, you know, I wasn't opposed to it at all. Like I said, I just didn't know what I didn't know.
And then through significant therapy, I had to let go of a lot of pain and a lot of anger.
And I always say to make room for Jesus, you know, in a vision, he was literally on a bench in a garden and he said, I've been waiting for you.
And I get choked up, you know, talking about that because it changed my life.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: Right, okay. How did you get introduced to missions from there?
[00:03:35] Speaker B: The church that we were in, and they were very mission oriented. They were in Texarkana, Arkansas, and they went on a mission trip. And I didn't know anything about missions. And when they came home, they told everybody about their experience. And we were in a small group with the ladies, and I looked at Bobbi and I said, I don't know anything about what this is, but I know I want what they have because they were just filled.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: And these are people who had experienced a mission trip or.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Yes, they had just gotten home.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: They're talking about it.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: And so that kind of sold you that you wanted to go on the field yourself.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Okay. And then when was Your first trip?
[00:04:18] Speaker B: 2015, five years after I was saved.
And Bobby, my husband and my son Nathan. And then Bobby has an adult cousin that the four of us went. And I just took the itinerary from the lady from the group at church and mimicked it.
I booked.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: So you didn't go with a group?
[00:04:38] Speaker B: No, we went as a family.
[00:04:39] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I just mimicked everything that they did. We stayed at the same place. We served the same people.
We did everything that they did.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: Was this in Africa?
[00:04:49] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Jinja, Uganda.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: So that's a very risky decision to make.
I get invited to Africa probably more than anywhere else in the world. I've got friends in Uganda and Rwanda and different places. And they're like, pastor, when are you going to come see us? You know, and it's like, to be quite honest, I've been in some bad places. Honduras at one time was the murder capital of the world.
And so to load up and go to Africa is something. The Lord's just going to have to make it real close to me to do that. But you just went. It's like a vacation.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: I just knew. I just knew that it was what I wanted to do. There was something, whether it was the Holy Spirit or what it was, that was just burdening my heart. And then we were there for two weeks, and on the way home on the plane, I knew the Holy Spirit just said, do something.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: And.
And so that changed.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: What sort of. What sort of needs did you see and did you observe? What kind of pain did you observe there?
[00:05:54] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, it was life changing.
I had been very, very blessed to travel the world my whole life and.
But I had never been to a Third world war torn country.
And it changed everything. It changed my perspective. My greatest prayer coming home was, lord, just don't let me be resentful of my life. You know, I do have 20 pairs of shoes in the closet. You know, I have a closet full of clothes and a roof over my head and running water. I mean, these people have nothing.
Nothing.
And to see that and feel that and smell that and touch was life changing. I mean, I can't. I can't.
It's so hard to explain, which is so hard for me to sell, you know, my ministry and what I'm doing there, because the majority of us can't relate to that if you have not been. It's very hard for me to put into words, which is why I show pictures and I tell people at my events, look, I know these people that I'm showing you. These aren't just images I'm pulling off the Internet of some starving baby. I can tell you her name, I can tell you their family story.
And it's very hard to put that experience into words.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: You know, most people wouldn't realize, I don't know about your family legacy and history. You said you had an alcoholic in your family. So mine did as well. Dad was a baby of 12 kids, very, very poor.
A father who, my granddad Floyd had all the potential in the world. He was a great musician, was on the Grand Ole Opry, you know, so he had potential to really do some things, but lost everything, drank it away, spent it away, whatever he did.
So when we got back from my first experience in a third world country to Guatemala, and I was explaining the same things that you saw in Africa. And my dad, they would go down to the spring to wash their clothes.
And so you'd see these women down there scrubbing clothes with old scrub boards.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Like, we used to see babies lying the river.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: And I'm like.
And dad, at some point he said, you do know how I grew up, don't you?
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: And I said, what do you mean? He said, it was the same way we got our water out of the well.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: You know, Mama washed the clothes. You know, if we ate, it's something we grew in our garden or a chicken that ran around the yard, you know, and so we were one generation removed from the poverty that we saw in Guatemala. Dad.
Dad would go out and pick clods of dirt off of tires and suck on them like candy when he was a baby. I'm talking three.
So at some point they interacted with a doctor and they said, we can't make him stop doing this. Why does he do this? And they said he lacks nutrition and he's trying to get vitamins out of that. And then that's just. That's a very natural thing to do.
And so, you know, while we look at countries that we would call third World and all of that, many of us in the south especially, we're not many generations away from that, you know, And I think that's good. When you visit those countries, in some ways, you're visiting your own history, you know?
So the vision to put together a way to help.
How did that come to you?
[00:09:33] Speaker B: I reached out to thank God for social media in that respect, because I kept in touch with some missionaries that we had met that are there full time through Facebook. And then I friended a few of the Ugandans that had helped, you know, serve us while we were there.
And I just said, you know, what is a real need? I don't want to be just another white lady that packs a suitcase for full of soccer balls and checks a box. I mean, what I kept hearing was, it has to be legacy changing. That was what the goal was. This. Whatever I do, it has to impact generations, period.
And the one thing that came to mind was education.
We were in the village visiting some families, and all of these children came out of the cornfield, and it was in the middle of the day, like, they should have been at school.
And you can't tell the boys from the girls unless they're pubescent. They all wear whatever they can grab, and they all have shaved heads.
And so I said, why aren't these children in school? Like, what's going on?
And the friend, the Ugandan that I was with, she said, well, if you'll notice, most of them are little girls. And I said, well, I. I can't really tell. I'm sorry, but I can't really tell.
And I said, why? Why are the little girls predominately not in school? And she said, if there's money in the home, the boys get to go to school and the girls have to stay home, work the fields, pick food out of the garden, fetch water, do the laundry. And as soon as they start their menstrual cycle, they usually grandmother is the one raising them. In our experience, I've met one father in 10 years. Wow.
Now, that's just been my experience. I don't want to generalize it. I get in trouble for that.
But that has been my experience.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: That's not uncommon in not just Africa and third World. Countries, the family is the building block of everything.
And if the family falls apart, the government will follow.
Dictators move in, warlords move in. And it all begins in the home.
And so it's very common what you're describing.
And so many times in those circumstances, evil kind of takes root, you see, sexual abuse, trafficking,
[00:12:07] Speaker B: witchcraft, child sacrifice.
One of the villages that we serve, we have the most students out of that we have plucked them out of that village is riddled with child sacrifice and witchcraft. That's their immediate go to.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: And what are they hoping to accomplish there? Is that a way of manipulating the demigod or the demon or whatever it is?
[00:12:30] Speaker B: Usually it's about money.
I want it. How can I get rich? How can I pay my child school fees? And the witch doctor will say, well, bring me the genitals of a 3 year old boy or whatever he comes up with, you know, and that's. It's usually about money.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: So is the goal or illness, excuse me, or illness is the goal for the average lady?
How old is the average lady that you minister to?
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Probably in her 30s.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Okay, so is a win, and I don't know if they think in these terms the way an American would, but would the win for them be to be a successful person in Africa in that environment or to leave the environment?
[00:13:16] Speaker B: In that environment.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Okay, so they don't hope to leave.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: They have no desire to leave their home. They just want to be successful in whatever that looks like for them, right where they're planted.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: And what does that mean? Does that mean having enough? Does that mean safety?
[00:13:30] Speaker B: That means both having enough, being safe, raising their children.
They're doing this by themselves.
And a lot of times we will have what we call the jajas. The grandmothers are there and they primarily do the rearing.
And so, you know, when you're in your 60s, 70s and you have a teenage girl, you know, even though you kind of know what to do, you're tired. I mean, I just became a grandmother at 56 and we had our first night with him, you know, nine weeks. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is hard. I'm tired. It's not the same, you know, it's not the same at our age. And so same for them, right? And so the goal for them is to keep them safe. They would love for them to be educated, but primarily food, water, shelter. I mean the basics. They just want the basics for their family.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: What do you see in terms of. I spoke this week actually with a gentleman who is now, he's A former Navy SEAL running for Senate in Alabama. And so he was talking about his first trip to Africa and he would see when you bless one of the ladies, the men would get upset.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Oh yes.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Does that still happen?
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: And is there physical abuse?
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Yes, very much so.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: What is, what is the government situation like? There's part of me that thinks if you go in and if you're just crazy successful and meet all your goals and hit all of your needs, what's going to keep the government from just taking that?
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Nothing.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Why do you do it then?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Because God called me to do that and I can't. I learned very early that I can't change Uganda.
I cannot change what's going on in Uganda on a large scale. What I can do is create a bubble and impact as many little girls lives futures as possible.
We see corruption every time we're there
[00:15:31] Speaker A: and it's talking about government. We all know there's corruption in government. It's in the church too. And that's been a difficult thing for us is that we would go and we would send money to any of these places. We had one situation where we would go in and build homes. And you know, when we think of a home, you know, we think of, you know, 1500 square feet, whatever, what they consider a home in third world countries, we probably wouldn't call a doghouse here, you know, it's just a roof over their head. And so we.
And it's changed. This started back in the 90s, but to go build a home in Guatemala cost roughly $800.
So we would go and raise enough to build, let's say five homes. And then we would go down, we were the laborer, hire a couple of Guatemalans to help us. And what we had to figure out is who gets a home.
And so we would partner with a church, the minister would go into the community and he was supposed to figure out who is the least likely to be able to do this for himself.
So this is going to be your widow, ladies. This is going to be your single moms. And so we would go in, we would build the houses and celebrate. Boy, we feel like we did something for the Lord. And then discover later that he was cutting deals.
He was taking, let's say if it was a $800 home, he would say, you give me $200 and I'll make sure you get an $800 home.
And so he was taking money under the table for that kind of stuff, which you want to do very bad things. Once you hear about that Right.
And so finding those partnerships where you can trust people. Have you had bad experiences with it?
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: How do you learn how to trust?
[00:17:23] Speaker B: It was shocking. And I literally felt like I was going through a divorce.
I had a partner there, and she was Ugandan and had a very sad story. And, you know, we were trauma bonded, honestly.
We were both sexually assaulted at 14 and she ended up getting pregnant and then forced to marry him and stayed in an abusive relationship. And so we instantly were bonded over that.
And it was. It was so.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: And you probably felt that there was. That you could trust her.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Oh, explicitly, yes.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: And when that was violated, how did you.
Is there anything that you've learned that can say? Because I know at some point you just have to trust people.
But are there any red flags for people who are stepping into this kind of ministry to watch out for or checks and balances or how do you. How do you create this?
[00:18:25] Speaker B: It's interesting that you say that, because I was so angry.
I'm in a missionary group that's based in Jinja, and I was so angry at them because they're there full time.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: They should have saw it.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: They've been through this personally. They have experienced what I experienced. Why aren't they telling anybody about it? Why aren't they teaching the new people that are hitting the ground running and are so excited and want to just work for the Lord? Because the Lord told me to, and this is what we're doing and it's going to be amazing. Why aren't they saying, well, can I just offer this as a precautionary tale? You know, nobody's talking.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: Did they just not think that way or what?
[00:19:11] Speaker B: Well, they said what? The feedback that I got was that people just stay to themselves. They just. They don't want anybody interjecting into their ministry there.
They just want to do what they want to do and move forward. And it's almost like they have their own blinders on, which is so unfair to me. I mean, from my perspective, it could have been saved me thousands of dollars and heartache and hurt and, you know, all of those things. In hindsight, you know, when you get past the anger, you realize, okay, there was a lesson in that, and I had to go through that in order to get where I'm at. I could not understand why the Lord was not blessing that ministry. I couldn't understand it. Lord, if this is what you're asking me to do, why are there so many roadblocks? Why can I not reach people?
You know, he knew. Obviously he knew what was going on that I couldn't see, so there was no way he was going to bless that.
You know, now we have stepped aside and around and doing things very differently.
The biggest thing is I don't trust anybody with money.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Yeah, we learned that. We said, especially in those sort of countries.
And by that, I just. Where there's not an established system of, like, following paper trails.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: When people would ask us to just send money, we would.
Most recently, it was like, well, for what? What are we sending money for? Well, we want to provide Bibles. How many do you need?
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: We need 1500 Bibles for all these pastors that we're going to serve. What language would you like those in?
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: You know, yes, they give us the language and we're like, well, we will send you 1500 Bibles, but we're not gonna send you the money.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: And it's not because they violated our trust. It's just, you live and learn.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: I have one employee now, and she went through all of that with me, and she knows the pain, and she knows that we are gonna do things different moving forward. So we have a very strict checks and balances system in place.
And as we grow, that won't change.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: And I think that's so important because the people who can really help and fund the work that you're doing are people who are most likely to be taken advantage of by scammers or whatever it might be.
So you go one time and your LinkedIn, your Facebook, suddenly you have messages from everybody that can find you.
And they all have needs, and they're real. They're not making up the needs.
But, you know, I could name names that you would know of our ladies that are sweet godly widow ladies go on a mission trip. They come back and they're haunted by some of the people that are demanding, you know, you've got the means to help me, you know, and we beg them, don't do that. Don't just send money. Please trust us, you know, because we don't do that.
We send goods and services.
We'll send people education.
If we can go in and help build something, we'll do that. But you can so easily be taken advantage of that way.
So you said that your calling was to education. You want to improve the lives of the ladies. It's primarily ladies you serve.
[00:22:42] Speaker B: It is. It's young girls that are highly at risk of being forced into early marriage.
So when their menstrual cycle starts, the grandmother or mother or whomever is in charge in the home starts looking for her husband.
So the goal for the little girl is, in their mind to have they get a dowry, and whoever provides the largest dowry to the family gets her. So it's, you know, sex slavery, human trafficking, however you want to, whatever box you want to check. But it is a form of that. And they.
Their primary goal is to have as many babies as possible.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: And you can't go in. And we were talking about this this week with a couple of people. You can't go in and just rescue them out of that legally.
You're talking about adults. You're talking about nations that have laws of their own. Is polygamy a thing there?
[00:23:40] Speaker B: We have not found that.
They just don't marry them.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: They're multiple, more like concubines.
So when we say education, I think in America our mind goes to reading, writing, arithmetic, classical education, whatever it might be. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean more like trade school type, vocational education, classical education.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: So what we do is we go into the home and we'll ask the family if they would please consider not accepting a dowry for her and allow us to take her from the home and put her in boarding school in a nearby village or faraway village. It just depends on the situation. You know, it's very dangerous for her to be at home in that situation. We had three girls over Christmas break come back pregnant to us from rapes.
So the goal is to keep them safe.
I don't want them worried about anything except an education. I do not want them worried about where their next meal is coming from. Are they going to be cold or hot or have a bed.
I want us to be able to supply all of those basic needs for the little girl. And I just want her to worry about getting her grades.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: You think of them like your own children.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: It sounds like I do.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: So you take some responsibility there.
If they are educated and they can progress. Are there job opportunities for girls? There are.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: There's not a lot. They'll probably have to leave the area and go, you know, to a different, not necessarily village. But there's great job opportunities in more of the established towns.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: Gentlemen, what kind of jobs?
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Mostly hospitality. A lot of hospitality work is available.
But funny enough, the majority of our girls want to become lawyers, nurses, doctors. One of our little girls, Bena, wants to be a pilot.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: But that's so cool. Because that's so cool.
[00:25:49] Speaker B: I mean, they have the same dreams as our little girls. They do. I mean, and you talk to and you're just looking at Them thinking, yeah, this is never going to happen.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: Well, we ran into it and I think most of my ministry outside of the States has been in Central America. So we would run into it there. And you go in, you pour into these kids, you educate these kids.
We've been with organizations that would help them get through college.
What's the first thing they do is they get out of country.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: And so if you can somehow educate the children, Christianize, get them a gospel centered worldview and give them a missional love for their own people with that skill set as a lawyer, as someone who can advance in society, they can bring about long term, but they can't do it if they leave the country.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: I love my Cuban friends, but so many of the pastors, the great, I'm talking rock stars of Cuba in preaching in the Baptist world, they would get on a boat as soon as they could, they would go through Mexico, come up to the States and God bless them. I can't say that I blame them. I wouldn't want to be there.
[00:27:10] Speaker B: How can we, we blame them?
[00:27:12] Speaker A: No, you can't judge them for it.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: It's a different life.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: But we can't change Cuba outside of Cuba.
And so there's a need for these people in Africa or Cuba or Guatemala to take ownership.
You know, I think about in our own country when our revolution happened, we had to fight it.
And you know, I look at what we're doing like in Iran currently and, and I'm thankful that a president is getting involved, that we're doing something there. But it's really going to be up to the Iranians if we can disable some things and if they can take their country back, for it to be something that lasts long term, they've got to rise up.
They do. And they can't do that if they don't have some foundational understanding of how the world works.
So it begins around what age?
[00:28:09] Speaker B: Our youngest is eight.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: Okay. And those would be just basic elementary. Are you teaching like their language? Are you teaching them English?
[00:28:20] Speaker B: That's kind of how. That's your number one flag that they've had any schooling is if they can speak English. A lot of the families will kind of exaggerate or lie to us about how much education they've had.
And we can pretty much tell right away if she can speak language.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: So you start. There are the stair steps, I would presume, let's say if it's a fifth grader there versus a fifth grader here, it might be more like a first
[00:28:55] Speaker B: grader well, and it depends on how much education she's had. It really. They test just like our girls do going into the school, and they have an assessment test as to kind of where they are.
And even if they're 12, but they are reading and writing, you know, as a second grader, a third grader. Then they'll make them start. Okay, and catch up, you know, and then we provide tutoring on the off, on their breaks, on their school breaks.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: Now, tell me if I'm wrong. I thought we had a conversation at one time about some opportunities for them to make some money along the way.
That they're trained to do jewelry or something. Am I confusing that?
[00:29:39] Speaker B: We train them in the off. In their school breaks. We provide a trade class.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: That's what I'm thinking of.
What does that involve?
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Basket weaving, jewelry making, sewing. They all really like to learn how to tailor, so we'll do that. And then nursing. We have a nurse come in.
One of the staggering things for me is nobody talks about health.
Nobody in the home, nobody in the village.
They don't have access to health, you
[00:30:14] Speaker A: know, and there's AIDS epidemic that still rampant everywhere.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: Yes, we're talking about just basic health,
[00:30:22] Speaker A: but do they understand it? Do they comprehend it?
[00:30:26] Speaker B: So we had a nurse come in and found out. Well, you know, our little girls were meeting in the village. The nurse went to the village and she said, how many of you took a bath this morning? And There was probably 12, 13 girls sitting around. One raised her hand and she said, okay. And so then the. And so she. She started talking about basic body hygiene, hair hygiene, you know, you need to use soap, you need to wash, you need to bathe every day. I mean, little things. And then come to find out 75% of them had a UTI because they didn't know how to bathe themselves. What that looked like. Well, then the jaja started coming, you know, this lasted a week. So then the grandmothers would come to the class.
They all had UTIs.
So we were like, what is going? Nobody talks. Nobody teaches.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: It's like a time warp.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: So help me understand this.
And this may be above both of our pay grades here. I'm just trying to figure some things out, really, from the outside.
If I.
If I watch, I'm a little bit. Probably the way some guys watch nascar. I watch politics. I enjoy just watching what's happening around the world, learning from it.
And I think we've got this concept in America that if we can get everything Christianized, sanitized, you Know, leave secularism alone and go just fully all in in a Christian country that that makes all the problems go away. And what I found is some of these very countries that have so many issues also they outlaw homosexuality a lot of times. And some of the things that we would consider. Oh, that's great, you know, that they're taking steps in that direction. How did those two things happen in the same culture? Culture and nation, where at the top ranks you hear a lot of fundamental Christian principles that doesn't bleed down into the streets.
Does that make any sense?
[00:32:42] Speaker B: It does. The challenge is that Uganda is 50% Christian and 50% Muslim.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Okay. And are they truly Christian? Truly Muslim? Is it cultural?
[00:32:53] Speaker B: In my experience, it is truly.
In the former ministry that I was in, we did have some Muslim culinary students and they were devout Muslims.
They were very worried about coming to the culinary school because they knew that we were Christian based and they were very concerned that we were going to try to convert them.
Two of the girls did convert silently.
So I will say that that's a big challenge. Thankfully, we don't have that issue right now. None of our girls that we have, we have 38 little girls in school and none of them are Muslim.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: Is there a violent opposition between Christians and Muslims?
How do they coexist?
Have you seen, seen any of the warlord activity where they come in and try to take over? Or is that something. Has Uganda established enough that they can keep that out?
[00:33:54] Speaker B: No, it happens. And they're usually infiltrated from the outside in the Congo is right there on their border.
And so usually they're Congolese that are coming in and they're still at war.
And so some of that bleeds over into Uganda. That's not necessarily meaning that they're Muslim or Christian.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: It's just part of war. That's a different, a different situation.
What has been the most frightening thing that you've seen there?
Have you ever felt your life at danger?
[00:34:24] Speaker B: I was, yes.
My life was threatened last year when we were there. And. Well, it's been about 18 months. January of 25.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: I will say this to give some context.
We don't realize how much we stand out.
Oh yes, you know, so you go, beautiful lady, white skin, you look different than everybody else.
When we would go to Central America, tall, blond hair, blue eyed guy, just. You look like an alien to them.
And so you're on everybody's radar.
And not everybody has good intentions. So how much can you tell me about that?
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Well, and I'm not very well liked because I am A threat to the men.
I'm trying to take their future wife and mother of however many children away.
So that's always a huge concern for me.
I don't travel with anybody that I'm not unfamiliar with.
I know that the people that I travel with have my back. I usually travel with security.
And I'll tell you a God story.
One of our board members. When everything was falling apart with the previous ministry, I sent one of my board members unannounced to Uganda. And I used to be very judgmental about that when other ministers, ministries, people would do that. And I was just like, oh, that's kind of sneaky. And I don't really. That's icky. I don't really like that.
Well, I don't judge anymore because I understand why.
So when my board member went and she called and she said, are you sitting down? It's way worse than we thought it was. And I was sending $1,500 a month for a ministry that no longer existed, you know, and that was just putting it mildly. So that the funds ceased immediately.
And so things happened, you know, from that point. So a friend of hers that she used to be in the military, she served in Afghanistan, and a friend of hers was on Facebook and saw that she was there, and he served with her. And he said. He private messaged her and he said, girl, what are you doing? You know, he knew she was by herself in Uganda. And he said, you need security. Like, what are you thinking? You need security. Oh, it's fine. You know, I'm fine.
And we had never had security before.
And so we met in December, that was in August. And we met and I traveled for the first time with a security team in January, and my life was threatened for the first time.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: Well, it's very, very wise that you did that.
[00:37:14] Speaker B: It was crazy to me that God saw all of that coming where I was so naive and thinking, oh, it's fine.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: You know, I think we probably, I don't know, pastorally always.
There's always a line that you don't want to cross as a pastor when you've got someone in your church who has a ministry that I'm looking at going, I feel some responsibility if you're going down there and if our people are going with you. I feel some responsibility there that I want you guys to be safe and get home safely. The truth is, we're not promised safety.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: Mission is a risk in itself.
We had a group that we worked with that was Impact Ministries in Honduras and part of the way that it's a little different in Central America in that it's gang ran.
So it's very organized crime, gang ridden. And if you want to go and do ministry in a city, you've got to go through the proper channels. They've got sentries on the lookout.
If a van drives in, bullets are going to start flying if you didn't get permission. So you go to the leader of the gang and typically the weird thing about it is they've got kids too.
And if you're coming in and you're educating and if you're leading them to Jesus, like the gang leader who's killed people and sells drugs, wants his kid to go to heaven too. It's a really weird dichotomy. And so we would, the leaders, Ms. Ruth would follow the proper procedures, always get permission. But so she had these teams of Americans that would come in, it might be 20, mostly college students, and there would be very strict rules.
Okay, we have permission to go down these streets. Do not go down this street. You do not have permission.
And kids being kids, they're not going to follow the rules the way they should. And so, you know, in a good hearted way, they go down the wrong street.
Next thing you know, there's the gangs pull up to the compound, slam on their brakes.
Julio gets out and he's got his pistol, knocks on the door and says, send out Ruth.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: And so they go to the ceiling, she's got her bodyguard and Ruth is trying to talk to Julio.
And Julio, it was a total accident. We didn't mean for this to happen. He said, no, no, no.
One strike and you're out.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: And so I told you, if this ever happens, you die.
[00:40:04] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:40:05] Speaker A: And she's reasoning with him, she's begging him, all this. And it's about to be a gunfight.
So we're all hearing this and going, I mean it happened in the place we were at. And so we're going, how did it end?
And she says, well, obviously I didn't get shot.
But the coolest part of the story is meet Julio.
He was a deacon in the church at that point. Oh my gosh, it's the sweetest thing, you know, and that's just the reality of the risk you take in missions, is that you're stepping into a war zone. And we do that every day in Christianity. It's spiritual battle, but it's also a physical thing.
And so if people want to learn more, if they want to support what you're doing, if they want to Pray for you. How can they find out more about your work?
[00:40:55] Speaker B: We have a lot of information on the website, which is aminahope.org, a m I n a hope.org and then we have Facebook and Instagram and you've got
[00:41:07] Speaker A: a 501 set up so they can give directly.
[00:41:11] Speaker B: And we should have the NGO set up anytime. We've done everything over there that's necessary. Now we just have to jump through a million of whom to get that done.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: If there were two or three prayer requests that are kind of top of the line, what would they be?
[00:41:29] Speaker B: Honestly, you know, that a missionary told me a few years ago, and I wish I had done this sooner to read a book. And it's When Helping Hurts. And now it's required reading for anybody who wants to travel with me.
I want the people that I encounter there to see Jesus through what my ministry is doing.
None of this is about Pam. I don't want. I'm just.
I'm just doing what I was called to do. And I really want people to know Jesus through this.
And that's really the most important thing that the prayer would be. Anybody that we encounter, that they would see the love and the light that we're bringing to the situation and that we do authentically want the best in whatever that looks like.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Are you leading trips? Are people able to go see it firsthand?
[00:42:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yes, please. Bobby always says, why do you invite people to go? It's so much work for you.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: And I was like, it is a lot of work.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: I'm not going to.
If people feel led to come and serve, I'm not going to say no. You know, who am I to say no?
[00:42:42] Speaker A: And it's something strange.
I remember we had a very generous individual in our first church and he made a deal with me. He said, if a missionary comes through town, bring them by my office. I'll buy them lunch and give them $5,000.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Oh, wow, that would be amazing.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: Just a deal, you know.
But here's the thing. This particular gentleman could have just as easily give 5 million.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: Okay. So that's the level of wealth he had. He said, but I've decided the Lord has led me that I don't go above five grand until I'm seeing it firsthand.
There's something about seeing it firsthand that just changes everything.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: I tell people, be prepared, Be prepared, bring a journal. Because what you're seeing and feeling and experiencing is very hard.
You do need to decompress. And you have to have an outlet for that. So I always suggest people bring a journal, even if they're not normally journalers. You know, you have to have an outlet because what you're seeing is hard, very hard.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: Let me end with this, a question with a surprising, I think a surprising thing that I found in these countries, as difficult as it is, especially for us Americans, to see the poverty, to see the pain, the abuse, all the things that are taking place. And we could talk about that all day.
There's also some joy there.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, they are the most joy filled people.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: Isn't that an interesting thing on the planet? And you'll see, you'll just see little children, you know, they can pick up a stick and play with it all day. Where our kids want the latest, greatest Xbox or whatever. And so that's refreshing I think as well the impact it has on us.
It reminds us how blessed we are, but it shows us also how much we don't need.
[00:44:42] Speaker B: It puts things into perspective very quickly.
[00:44:45] Speaker A: It's a great way to reset.
Well on that, Pam, thank you for joining us today and we'll put all the links in the bio and show notes, but I wish you the best and hope our people get behind you.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity.
[00:44:58] Speaker A: Amen.
